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Posted Aug 6, 2013
11:45:16 AM
Uploads kill my download bandwith

Hi - found another post on this topic whereby some blame the 2Wire RG; others believe it to be a line problem (bridge taps/interference).  A bad vrad port seemed to be the problem for one of the posters.

 

EXECUTIVE SUMMARY:

I have 12.5/1.5 service plan.  When I am doing nothing to consume bandwidth, Speedtest.net shows I am getting what I am paying for (11.6/1.5).

 

When I kick off an online backup (Iron Mountain Connected backup), speedtest.net shows between 0.25/0.3 and 1.4/0.4

 

I've been getting nowhere slowly with AT&T.

 

==========================================

 

DETAILS:

I've spoken to several level 1 techs since last week; they overnighted me a new modem (despite my assurances that this was NOT the problem...); had a prem tech out here this morning saying all was well.  I objected and he called his manager Robert Williams who told him to tell me he was in a meeting and would call me in 10 - 15 minutes.

 

That was about 4 hours ago, during which time an admin called me to confirm all was well.  When I told her "No", she cold transferred me to Level 1 again!  I objected and they bounced me to Level 2.  Level 2 called the prem tech twice over a 45 minute period reminding him that I hadn't yet heard from his manager -- but still no return call.

 

Level 2 confirmed what I have been told in the past: that upstream and downstream services use separate protocols and should not affect each other.  Further, Level 2 said that the "Quality Check" tool shows overall status failure and line status failure, meaning that this is a line quality issue.  I had been told this by the Level 1 tech yesterday who scheduled the prem tech, but the prem tech couldn't see these status failures onsite.  Interestingly, it seems the status failures may occur only while I am running the online backup and maxing out my upload bandwidth which surprises me; I would think their quality tests are checking hardware characteristics like signal, not data packets...?

 

Level 2 also said that I was using negligible bandwidth when speedtest.net was reporting such low bandwidth metrics; he determined this via the NAT sessions:

e.g. RG Settings, Diagnostics, NAT tab shows

session table 989/1024 available, 0/512 used in inbound sessions:

So I still have 989 sessions available for download which the tech explained was evidence of a problem since speedtest.net was showing such low download bandwidth available (it seems the backup software doesn't use NAT because UV Realtime shows my upstream maxed out at around 1.5 even though the NAT table shows 0/512 used)

 

And then I just got an automated call saying something like "your problem was a network issue that has identified and fixed"... but nothing is different on my end.

 

I think it must be every single time I have had a problem over the past several years with Uverse, it has been a support nightmare that consumed man days of my time... (sorry... ranting....)

 

I don't know how to proceed... hoping someone can offer some suggestions.  Screenshots in next post for those who are still reading... Smiley Frustrated

 

 

Hi - found another post on this topic whereby some blame the 2Wire RG; others believe it to be a line problem (bridge taps/interference).  A bad vrad port seemed to be the problem for one of the posters.

 

EXECUTIVE SUMMARY:

I have 12.5/1.5 service plan.  When I am doing nothing to consume bandwidth, Speedtest.net shows I am getting what I am paying for (11.6/1.5).

 

When I kick off an online backup (Iron Mountain Connected backup), speedtest.net shows between 0.25/0.3 and 1.4/0.4

 

I've been getting nowhere slowly with AT&T.

 

==========================================

 

DETAILS:

I've spoken to several level 1 techs since last week; they overnighted me a new modem (despite my assurances that this was NOT the problem...); had a prem tech out here this morning saying all was well.  I objected and he called his manager Robert Williams who told him to tell me he was in a meeting and would call me in 10 - 15 minutes.

 

That was about 4 hours ago, during which time an admin called me to confirm all was well.  When I told her "No", she cold transferred me to Level 1 again!  I objected and they bounced me to Level 2.  Level 2 called the prem tech twice over a 45 minute period reminding him that I hadn't yet heard from his manager -- but still no return call.

 

Level 2 confirmed what I have been told in the past: that upstream and downstream services use separate protocols and should not affect each other.  Further, Level 2 said that the "Quality Check" tool shows overall status failure and line status failure, meaning that this is a line quality issue.  I had been told this by the Level 1 tech yesterday who scheduled the prem tech, but the prem tech couldn't see these status failures onsite.  Interestingly, it seems the status failures may occur only while I am running the online backup and maxing out my upload bandwidth which surprises me; I would think their quality tests are checking hardware characteristics like signal, not data packets...?

 

Level 2 also said that I was using negligible bandwidth when speedtest.net was reporting such low bandwidth metrics; he determined this via the NAT sessions:

e.g. RG Settings, Diagnostics, NAT tab shows

session table 989/1024 available, 0/512 used in inbound sessions:

So I still have 989 sessions available for download which the tech explained was evidence of a problem since speedtest.net was showing such low download bandwidth available (it seems the backup software doesn't use NAT because UV Realtime shows my upstream maxed out at around 1.5 even though the NAT table shows 0/512 used)

 

And then I just got an automated call saying something like "your problem was a network issue that has identified and fixed"... but nothing is different on my end.

 

I think it must be every single time I have had a problem over the past several years with Uverse, it has been a support nightmare that consumed man days of my time... (sorry... ranting....)

 

I don't know how to proceed... hoping someone can offer some suggestions.  Screenshots in next post for those who are still reading... Smiley Frustrated

 

 

Uploads kill my download bandwith

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Aug 6, 2013 12:06:27 PM
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Edited by Phil-101 on Aug 6, 2013 at 12:28:18 PM

1. Not using bandwidth:

 

 

2. Online backup running:

 

3. UV Realtime IP Profile:

[removed image with unique IP and MAC addresses]

 

4. UV Realtime Interfaces (shows I am close to maxing out my upload bandwidth because my laptop is doing an online backup and is plugged into port 3):

 

5. UV Realtime Bitloading tab:

 

Not sure if the bitloading graph is showing a problem; I believe SomeJoe7777 has characterized some of the graphs submitted by others as "the buzz saw denotes a bridge tap/interference problem" or he talks about "sinusoidal patterns in the tops of the bitloading values" in the Main Documentation for UV Realtime (cool piece of software btw!)

 

But I am not sure whether my graph matches those descriptions (and there is the 0 values between 4.9 - 5.2 MHz)

 

Hope you guys can help me to a resolution...  Thank--

Sam

1. Not using bandwidth:

 

 

2. Online backup running:

 

3. UV Realtime IP Profile:

[removed image with unique IP and MAC addresses]

 

4. UV Realtime Interfaces (shows I am close to maxing out my upload bandwidth because my laptop is doing an online backup and is plugged into port 3):

 

5. UV Realtime Bitloading tab:

 

Not sure if the bitloading graph is showing a problem; I believe SomeJoe7777 has characterized some of the graphs submitted by others as "the buzz saw denotes a bridge tap/interference problem" or he talks about "sinusoidal patterns in the tops of the bitloading values" in the Main Documentation for UV Realtime (cool piece of software btw!)

 

But I am not sure whether my graph matches those descriptions (and there is the 0 values between 4.9 - 5.2 MHz)

 

Hope you guys can help me to a resolution...  Thank--

Sam

Re: Uploads kill my download bandwith

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Aug 6, 2013 1:39:01 PM
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Edited by JefferMC on Aug 6, 2013 at 1:45:42 PM

Your bitloading graph is fairly normal (no bad comb pattern, no real sinusoidal wave pattern), as is your problem statement (download severly restricted when upstream near max).

 

The RG doesn't handle upstream saturation well at all.  We recommend that you limit your big upstream users to a total of no more than 80% of your upstream bandwidth to keep from shutting down your downstream.  Most online backups have a setting to allow you to do this, as do most bitTorrent clients (another big offender).

 

Found this on Iron Mountain's datasheet:

 

 

Other Features
• Bandwidth Throttling: You can limit the amount of 
network bandwidth used during backups

 

 

 

Your bitloading graph is fairly normal (no bad comb pattern, no real sinusoidal wave pattern), as is your problem statement (download severly restricted when upstream near max).

 

The RG doesn't handle upstream saturation well at all.  We recommend that you limit your big upstream users to a total of no more than 80% of your upstream bandwidth to keep from shutting down your downstream.  Most online backups have a setting to allow you to do this, as do most bitTorrent clients (another big offender).

 

Found this on Iron Mountain's datasheet:

 

 

Other Features
• Bandwidth Throttling: You can limit the amount of 
network bandwidth used during backups

 

 

 

*The views and opinions expressed on this forum are purely my own. Any product claim, statistic, quote, or other representation about a product or service should be verified with the manufacturer, provider, or party.

Re: Uploads kill my download bandwith

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Aug 6, 2013 2:53:46 PM
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Thanks - seems the service plan I am subscribed to does not give me such a throttling option (that may be for the business plans).  Any other thoughts?

Thanks - seems the service plan I am subscribed to does not give me such a throttling option (that may be for the business plans).  Any other thoughts?

Re: Uploads kill my download bandwith

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Aug 6, 2013 3:03:52 PM
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Here is a thought; ADSL - Asyncronous Digital Subscriber Line is a construct that tries to balance the use by many for the use of a few. Speaking in Vulcan. What that means is that the system is optimized for download. You will note the wide difference in speeds. That said, TCP/IP (Terminal Control / Internet Protocol) uses the upload channel for downloads to acknowledge each packet. So, when you are downloading, it is also uploading the acknowledgement that you got the packet.

 

Now, when yo are uploading you are saturating the upload channel, and downloads will suffer in that they cannot acknowledge each packet in a timely manner. It has two effects; first it will take a lot longer, and, some downloads will time out and the packets will be resent, again slowing things down.

 

The bottom line, ADSL is not good for uploads.

 

 

 

 

Here is a thought; ADSL - Asyncronous Digital Subscriber Line is a construct that tries to balance the use by many for the use of a few. Speaking in Vulcan. What that means is that the system is optimized for download. You will note the wide difference in speeds. That said, TCP/IP (Terminal Control / Internet Protocol) uses the upload channel for downloads to acknowledge each packet. So, when you are downloading, it is also uploading the acknowledgement that you got the packet.

 

Now, when yo are uploading you are saturating the upload channel, and downloads will suffer in that they cannot acknowledge each packet in a timely manner. It has two effects; first it will take a lot longer, and, some downloads will time out and the packets will be resent, again slowing things down.

 

The bottom line, ADSL is not good for uploads.

 

 

 

 

Re: Uploads kill my download bandwith

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Aug 6, 2013 4:07:36 PM
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modred.pendragon wrote:

Here is a thought; ADSL - Asyncronous Digital Subscriber Line is a construct that tries to balance the use by many for the use of a few. Speaking in Vulcan. What that means is that the system is optimized for download. You will note the wide difference in speeds. That said, TCP/IP (Terminal Control / Internet Protocol) uses the upload channel for downloads to acknowledge each packet. So, when you are downloading, it is also uploading the acknowledgement that you got the packet.

 

Now, when yo are uploading you are saturating the upload channel, and downloads will suffer in that they cannot acknowledge each packet in a timely manner. It has two effects; first it will take a lot longer, and, some downloads will time out and the packets will be resent, again slowing things down.

 

The bottom line, ADSL is not good for uploads.

  


I wouldn't say that.  I would say that ADSL is not as good for uploads as it is for downloads.  And very few consumer lines have a symetric connection, so the point is moot.

 


modred.pendragon wrote:

Here is a thought; ADSL - Asyncronous Digital Subscriber Line is a construct that tries to balance the use by many for the use of a few. Speaking in Vulcan. What that means is that the system is optimized for download. You will note the wide difference in speeds. That said, TCP/IP (Terminal Control / Internet Protocol) uses the upload channel for downloads to acknowledge each packet. So, when you are downloading, it is also uploading the acknowledgement that you got the packet.

 

Now, when yo are uploading you are saturating the upload channel, and downloads will suffer in that they cannot acknowledge each packet in a timely manner. It has two effects; first it will take a lot longer, and, some downloads will time out and the packets will be resent, again slowing things down.

 

The bottom line, ADSL is not good for uploads.

  


I wouldn't say that.  I would say that ADSL is not as good for uploads as it is for downloads.  And very few consumer lines have a symetric connection, so the point is moot.

 

*The views and opinions expressed on this forum are purely my own. Any product claim, statistic, quote, or other representation about a product or service should be verified with the manufacturer, provider, or party.

Re: Uploads kill my download bandwith

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Aug 6, 2013 4:23:34 PM
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There are other options, but they are all quite complicated.  Feel like flashing a router with public domain firmware?  I didn't think so.  So, let's see if we can get anywhere with your backup utility.

 

Iron Mountain sold this backup business to Autonomy (an HP company) a couple of years ago (http://www.autonomy.com/content/News/Releases/2011/0516.en.html).

 

This is all I can find about contacting them for service:

 

http://services.connected.com/stanford/support/support_contact.asp

 

(This has what appears to be a customer name in the link, but I'd start here).  They advertise throttling as a benefit on all the datasheets I can find, so they need to step up and provide it.  Most of the online manuals I find are a complete waste of time.  Even the "better" ones are not much (better).

 

 

 

 

 

There are other options, but they are all quite complicated.  Feel like flashing a router with public domain firmware?  I didn't think so.  So, let's see if we can get anywhere with your backup utility.

 

Iron Mountain sold this backup business to Autonomy (an HP company) a couple of years ago (http://www.autonomy.com/content/News/Releases/2011/0516.en.html).

 

This is all I can find about contacting them for service:

 

http://services.connected.com/stanford/support/support_contact.asp

 

(This has what appears to be a customer name in the link, but I'd start here).  They advertise throttling as a benefit on all the datasheets I can find, so they need to step up and provide it.  Most of the online manuals I find are a complete waste of time.  Even the "better" ones are not much (better).

 

 

 

 

 

*The views and opinions expressed on this forum are purely my own. Any product claim, statistic, quote, or other representation about a product or service should be verified with the manufacturer, provider, or party.

Re: Uploads kill my download bandwith

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Aug 6, 2013 4:31:23 PM
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By the way, if they balk, I'd point out the competition sure has this feature:

 

https://www.idrive.com/online-backup-classic-faq.htm#b8

 

https://carbonite.service-now.com/carbonite/kb_view.do?correlation_id=1349

 

 

By the way, if they balk, I'd point out the competition sure has this feature:

 

https://www.idrive.com/online-backup-classic-faq.htm#b8

 

https://carbonite.service-now.com/carbonite/kb_view.do?correlation_id=1349

 

 

*The views and opinions expressed on this forum are purely my own. Any product claim, statistic, quote, or other representation about a product or service should be verified with the manufacturer, provider, or party.

Re: Uploads kill my download bandwith

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Aug 6, 2013 5:49:41 PM
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Jeffer is correct. This issue is caused by poor routing code in the 2Wire routers. The only solution is to limit the upstream bandwidth used by the backup application.
Jeffer is correct. This issue is caused by poor routing code in the 2Wire routers. The only solution is to limit the upstream bandwidth used by the backup application.

Re: Uploads kill my download bandwith

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Aug 6, 2013 10:25:18 PM
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Thanks to all for your help.  Much appreciated!

 

>> [removed image with unique IP and MAC addresses]

Err..... Uhhh... thanks Man Embarassed

 

JefferMC:  Thanks for all the links and info you provided.

 

>>This issue is caused by poor routing code in the 2Wire routers

SomeJoe7777: Thanks -- can anyone give some more details explaining this?

 

 

Also -- was wondering whether there would be any significant benefit if I could get AT&T to change my profile per UV Realtime's recommendation to 32,200 /5,040 below:

 


Thanks to all for your help.  Much appreciated!

 

>> [removed image with unique IP and MAC addresses]

Err..... Uhhh... thanks Man Embarassed

 

JefferMC:  Thanks for all the links and info you provided.

 

>>This issue is caused by poor routing code in the 2Wire routers

SomeJoe7777: Thanks -- can anyone give some more details explaining this?

 

 

Also -- was wondering whether there would be any significant benefit if I could get AT&T to change my profile per UV Realtime's recommendation to 32,200 /5,040 below:

 


Re: Uploads kill my download bandwith

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Aug 6, 2013 11:14:45 PM
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Edited by mibrnsurg on Aug 6, 2013 at 11:15:47 PM

Generally they leave it at 25/2 for internet only customers, there is no need for a higher profile as there is plenty of overhead on a 12/1.5M internet plan. Smiley Wink

 

Edit: You can hide your personal info on the Config page of Realtime.

 

Chris


Please NO SD stretch-o-vision or 480 SD HD Channels
Need Help? 1-800-288-2020, After he gets acct info, press # a bunch of times, get a menu from Mr. Voice recognition
Your Results May Vary, In My Humble Opinion
I Call It Like I See It, Simply a U-verse user, nothing more

Generally they leave it at 25/2 for internet only customers, there is no need for a higher profile as there is plenty of overhead on a 12/1.5M internet plan. Smiley Wink

 

Edit: You can hide your personal info on the Config page of Realtime.

 

Chris


Please NO SD stretch-o-vision or 480 SD HD Channels
Need Help? 1-800-288-2020, After he gets acct info, press # a bunch of times, get a menu from Mr. Voice recognition
Your Results May Vary, In My Humble Opinion
I Call It Like I See It, Simply a U-verse user, nothing more

*The views and opinions expressed on this forum are purely my own. Any product claim, statistic, quote, or other representation about a product or service should be verified with the manufacturer, provider, or party.

Re: Uploads kill my download bandwith

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Aug 6, 2013 11:49:39 PM
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The only real benefit in having your profile changed to recommended is if you plan on spending an additional $15/month to change your internet plan to 24/3
This doubling if download may seem a good idea for the price but if you cannot limit your upload I suspect the same issue would apply.
The only real benefit in having your profile changed to recommended is if you plan on spending an additional $15/month to change your internet plan to 24/3
This doubling if download may seem a good idea for the price but if you cannot limit your upload I suspect the same issue would apply.
*I am an AT&T employee and the postings on this site are my own and don’t necessarily represent AT&T’s position, strategies or opinions.

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Aug 7, 2013 4:48:58 AM
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@my thoughts, Going to 24/3 from 12/1.5 would double his upload bandwidth and could theoretically half the time he is affected by the problem.

 

@SAbboushi, the issue is that the network application protocols downloading to your PC need to get response packets confirming that the downstream packets have been recieved.  These response packets have to wait in queue with the constant flow of the upstream packets from your upload, which means the server stops sending while waiting on responses.  (Normally the server will allow some number of unacknowledged packets before it stops sending more... the smaller this number, the more latency and issues like this will affect your download speed).  This lowers the effective bandwidth because the flow is interupted for periods of time.

 

QoS features can prioritize traffic, ensuring the smaller packets get their fair share of the uplink bandwidth, but the QoS in the 2WIRE only makes sure that U-verse VOIP and U-verse TV have priority over U-verse HSI (which means... it doesn't do anything in your situation).

 

@my thoughts, Going to 24/3 from 12/1.5 would double his upload bandwidth and could theoretically half the time he is affected by the problem.

 

@SAbboushi, the issue is that the network application protocols downloading to your PC need to get response packets confirming that the downstream packets have been recieved.  These response packets have to wait in queue with the constant flow of the upstream packets from your upload, which means the server stops sending while waiting on responses.  (Normally the server will allow some number of unacknowledged packets before it stops sending more... the smaller this number, the more latency and issues like this will affect your download speed).  This lowers the effective bandwidth because the flow is interupted for periods of time.

 

QoS features can prioritize traffic, ensuring the smaller packets get their fair share of the uplink bandwidth, but the QoS in the 2WIRE only makes sure that U-verse VOIP and U-verse TV have priority over U-verse HSI (which means... it doesn't do anything in your situation).

 

*The views and opinions expressed on this forum are purely my own. Any product claim, statistic, quote, or other representation about a product or service should be verified with the manufacturer, provider, or party.

Re: Uploads kill my download bandwith

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Aug 7, 2013 2:59:00 PM
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>> the network application protocols downloading to your PC need to get response packets confirming that the downstream packets have been recieved.  These response packets have to wait in queue with the constant flow of the upstream packets from your upload, which means the server stops sending while waiting on responses.  (Normally the server will allow some number of unacknowledged packets before it stops sending more... the smaller this number, the more latency and issues like this will affect your download speed).  This lowers the effective bandwidth because the flow is interupted for periods of time.

 

Thanks for this.  I understand this to mean that my download bandwidth is still fully available; it's just that the server stops sending packets because it is waiting on the ACKs; and the ACKs are buried in my upload stream queue.  Correct?

 

If so, and I throttle my backup to 95% of my upload bandwidth by adding a router with QoS (and assuming there are no other devices/apps consuming upload bandwidth), then would 5% of 1.5Mbs upload be sufficient to transmit the ACKs for 6-10Mbps of downloads?  Wondering why you suggest 20% (and I think Dan Wilson suggests 1/3rd)...?

 

Just curious - I can experiment, but wanted to know what I might be missing here... ; )

 

Thanks again for the terrific assistance.

>> the network application protocols downloading to your PC need to get response packets confirming that the downstream packets have been recieved.  These response packets have to wait in queue with the constant flow of the upstream packets from your upload, which means the server stops sending while waiting on responses.  (Normally the server will allow some number of unacknowledged packets before it stops sending more... the smaller this number, the more latency and issues like this will affect your download speed).  This lowers the effective bandwidth because the flow is interupted for periods of time.

 

Thanks for this.  I understand this to mean that my download bandwidth is still fully available; it's just that the server stops sending packets because it is waiting on the ACKs; and the ACKs are buried in my upload stream queue.  Correct?

 

If so, and I throttle my backup to 95% of my upload bandwidth by adding a router with QoS (and assuming there are no other devices/apps consuming upload bandwidth), then would 5% of 1.5Mbs upload be sufficient to transmit the ACKs for 6-10Mbps of downloads?  Wondering why you suggest 20% (and I think Dan Wilson suggests 1/3rd)...?

 

Just curious - I can experiment, but wanted to know what I might be missing here... ; )

 

Thanks again for the terrific assistance.

Re: Uploads kill my download bandwith

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Aug 7, 2013 4:12:57 PM
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I normally would suggest a figure less than 95%, but yes

I normally would suggest a figure less than 95%, but yes

*The views and opinions expressed on this forum are purely my own. Any product claim, statistic, quote, or other representation about a product or service should be verified with the manufacturer, provider, or party.

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Aug 8, 2013 7:28:45 AM
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JefferMC wrote:

I normally would suggest a figure less than 95%, but yes


Sorry, I read your post rather quickly the first time through.  You need to be sure that there's enough "idle" time for the returned packets to get through.  Different applications will throttle their sending differently, and its best to leave a little room for other bursty devices to get their traffic through as well.  I'd recommend experimentation.

 

 


JefferMC wrote:

I normally would suggest a figure less than 95%, but yes


Sorry, I read your post rather quickly the first time through.  You need to be sure that there's enough "idle" time for the returned packets to get through.  Different applications will throttle their sending differently, and its best to leave a little room for other bursty devices to get their traffic through as well.  I'd recommend experimentation.

 

 

*The views and opinions expressed on this forum are purely my own. Any product claim, statistic, quote, or other representation about a product or service should be verified with the manufacturer, provider, or party.

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Aug 8, 2013 6:49:13 PM
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Thanks

Thanks

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Looks like I need to go shopping for a router to replace the 3801HGV features. Can anyone please suggest what Netgear router would be comparable to the wired/wireless routing capabilities of the 3801HGV (including MAC filtering and a 400mW transmitter and Firewall pinholes) but with QoS that I can configure.
Looks like I need to go shopping for a router to replace the 3801HGV features. Can anyone please suggest what Netgear router would be comparable to the wired/wireless routing capabilities of the 3801HGV (including MAC filtering and a 400mW transmitter and Firewall pinholes) but with QoS that I can configure.

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Asus is making some routers with pretty impressive features and specs.  I've been planning to buy one, but haven't done so yet.  Here is a link to a page showing what QoS settings are available on one particular ASUS router:

 

http://support.asus.com/FAQ/Detail.aspx?SLanguage=en&no=A96BF68D-98C9-9D26-129A-3D5E596D3073&p=11&m=...

 

It looks like Automatic setting may give you what you're looking for without a lot of muss or fuss.  But if not, you have some tuning options to play with.

 

 

Asus is making some routers with pretty impressive features and specs.  I've been planning to buy one, but haven't done so yet.  Here is a link to a page showing what QoS settings are available on one particular ASUS router:

 

http://support.asus.com/FAQ/Detail.aspx?SLanguage=en&no=A96BF68D-98C9-9D26-129A-3D5E596D3073&p=11&m=RT-N16

 

It looks like Automatic setting may give you what you're looking for without a lot of muss or fuss.  But if not, you have some tuning options to play with.

 

 

*The views and opinions expressed on this forum are purely my own. Any product claim, statistic, quote, or other representation about a product or service should be verified with the manufacturer, provider, or party.

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