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Posted Jul 31, 2013
12:25:31 PM
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Frequent loss of service

I have been having a lot of issues for the past few months with Link Retrain and dropped service - at least a few times every day, sometimes for a few minutes and sometimes for hours.  I have tried to be patient, but no one from support seems to be able to get this issue fixed.

 

Here are sceenshots from UV Realtime - I have seen some other people have similar issues here:

 

 

The stats from UV Realtime are frequently very different depending.

 

I have been having a lot of issues for the past few months with Link Retrain and dropped service - at least a few times every day, sometimes for a few minutes and sometimes for hours.  I have tried to be patient, but no one from support seems to be able to get this issue fixed.

 

Here are sceenshots from UV Realtime - I have seen some other people have similar issues here:

 

 

The stats from UV Realtime are frequently very different depending.

 

Frequent loss of service

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Jul 31, 2013 12:59:02 PM
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Your noise margin is atrocius. Can you post a bits loading?

Your noise margin is atrocius. Can you post a bits loading?

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Jul 31, 2013 12:59:53 PM
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First issue is noise margin is less than 9.0 (listed 5.5) meaning strong interference in relation to signal.
Can you post bit loading graph?

Possible causes include but not not limited to
ATT
1) flaky Port at VRAD
2) bridge tap outside plant
3) dirty connection(s) at SAI or serving terminal
4) old copper drop instead on newer cat3 drop
5) old hardware in NID (ceremic protector instead of gel, older vdsl splitter)
6) non grounded or poor grounded buried drop
7)non grounded or poor grounded NID

Customer responsibilities (inside premise)
1) new home run cat5 versus quad
2) bridge tap (multiple connections) inside home
3) poor house electrical ground (need qualified electrician to verify)
4) EMI issues voltage spikes/drops due to compression motors (refrigerator, freezer, sump pumps)
5) RF issues, microwaves, fluorescent lights, etc.

Outside issues non uverse
1) thunderstorms
2) radio stations and short wave (ham radios)
3) atmospheric issues such as ionospheric at night

http://adslm.dohrenburg.net/troubleshoot/interference.php
First issue is noise margin is less than 9.0 (listed 5.5) meaning strong interference in relation to signal.
Can you post bit loading graph?

Possible causes include but not not limited to
ATT
1) flaky Port at VRAD
2) bridge tap outside plant
3) dirty connection(s) at SAI or serving terminal
4) old copper drop instead on newer cat3 drop
5) old hardware in NID (ceremic protector instead of gel, older vdsl splitter)
6) non grounded or poor grounded buried drop
7)non grounded or poor grounded NID

Customer responsibilities (inside premise)
1) new home run cat5 versus quad
2) bridge tap (multiple connections) inside home
3) poor house electrical ground (need qualified electrician to verify)
4) EMI issues voltage spikes/drops due to compression motors (refrigerator, freezer, sump pumps)
5) RF issues, microwaves, fluorescent lights, etc.

Outside issues non uverse
1) thunderstorms
2) radio stations and short wave (ham radios)
3) atmospheric issues such as ionospheric at night

http://adslm.dohrenburg.net/troubleshoot/interference.php
*I am an AT&T employee and the postings on this site are my own and don’t necessarily represent AT&T’s position, strategies or opinions.

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Aug 1, 2013 6:54:43 AM
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Aug 1, 2013 7:08:33 AM
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I cannot post for the ATT issues, but here is for some of your possible issues:

 

Customer responsibilities (inside premise)

1) new home run cat5 versus quad
2) bridge tap (multiple connections) inside home
3) poor house electrical ground (need qualified electrician to verify)
4) EMI issues voltage spikes/drops due to compression motors (refrigerator, freezer, sump pumps)
5) RF issues, microwaves, fluorescent lights, etc.

For these issues, we have had a tech out dozens of times and they have thoroughly checked all of the inside devices, but the line does appear to be just as dirty at the back of the house where it comes in - so they stopped checkng inside after the 5th-6th call.


Outside issues non uverse
1) thunderstorms (this doesn't only occur during thunderstorms, although it does sometimes - mostly occurs during clear skies during the day and night)
2) radio stations and short wave (ham radios) - we do have a lot of radio towers in the area, but we were fine for years until the past 6 months
3) atmospheric issues such as ionospheric at night (not isolated to nighttime)

 

I cannot post for the ATT issues, but here is for some of your possible issues:

 

Customer responsibilities (inside premise)

1) new home run cat5 versus quad
2) bridge tap (multiple connections) inside home
3) poor house electrical ground (need qualified electrician to verify)
4) EMI issues voltage spikes/drops due to compression motors (refrigerator, freezer, sump pumps)
5) RF issues, microwaves, fluorescent lights, etc.

For these issues, we have had a tech out dozens of times and they have thoroughly checked all of the inside devices, but the line does appear to be just as dirty at the back of the house where it comes in - so they stopped checkng inside after the 5th-6th call.


Outside issues non uverse
1) thunderstorms (this doesn't only occur during thunderstorms, although it does sometimes - mostly occurs during clear skies during the day and night)
2) radio stations and short wave (ham radios) - we do have a lot of radio towers in the area, but we were fine for years until the past 6 months
3) atmospheric issues such as ionospheric at night (not isolated to nighttime)

 

Re: Frequent loss of service

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Aug 1, 2013 9:14:31 AM
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Taken when the error actually started occuring at 11:07 today:

 

Taken when the error actually started occuring at 11:07 today:

 

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Aug 1, 2013 9:15:32 AM
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Edited by jim.ed on Aug 1, 2013 at 9:15:59 AM

And now that I am back up:

And now that I am back up:

Re: Frequent loss of service

[ Edited ]
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Aug 2, 2013 7:08:01 AM
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The Distance from VRAD seems to have dropped by 100 feet:

 

But I also had 6 more resets since yesterday:

 

The Distance from VRAD seems to have dropped by 100 feet:

 

But I also had 6 more resets since yesterday:

 

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Aug 2, 2013 7:37:52 AM
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Your last screen shots 8/2 NM 16.8 (great) last 15 minutes look very good. This is an interference issue, have you had an electrician out to very house grounding.
Uverse tech can only verify NID is tied to house ground not f your house ground is any good.
If techs neighbourhood check shows no one else is having same issues then problem is localized at your address.
If others in same group having issues still outside but with as many visits with outside linemen I believe grounding issue at this point or something else in local if not immediate inside home.

http://forums.att.com/t5/Features-and-How-To/Anyone-have-ATT-Uverse-and-live-by-a-radio-tower/m-p/21...
Your last screen shots 8/2 NM 16.8 (great) last 15 minutes look very good. This is an interference issue, have you had an electrician out to very house grounding.
Uverse tech can only verify NID is tied to house ground not f your house ground is any good.
If techs neighbourhood check shows no one else is having same issues then problem is localized at your address.
If others in same group having issues still outside but with as many visits with outside linemen I believe grounding issue at this point or something else in local if not immediate inside home.

http://forums.att.com/t5/Features-and-How-To/Anyone-have-ATT-Uverse-and-live-by-a-radio-tower/m-p/2103159/highlight/true#M35776
*I am an AT&T employee and the postings on this site are my own and don’t necessarily represent AT&T’s position, strategies or opinions.

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Aug 6, 2013 8:07:01 AM
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I don't know what happened, but it appears several of my posts and some others have been deleted...

 

 

I don't know what happened, but it appears several of my posts and some others have been deleted...

 

 

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Aug 6, 2013 8:17:42 AM
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My thoughts, i don't see how this could be a grounding issue inside my home - the service was fine up until the past 6 months unless you think my internal electrical system somehow got compromised.  

 

I haven't done any renovations inside or outside the home, and the noise has been seen outside my home by numerous techs who have come out on the service calls.  There have been a lot of housing units built across the street from my home, and that seems to be when the issues started occuring - i think someone or something has been added to the line that is overloading or otherwise causing the line noise.

 

 

 

 

 

 

My thoughts, i don't see how this could be a grounding issue inside my home - the service was fine up until the past 6 months unless you think my internal electrical system somehow got compromised.  

 

I haven't done any renovations inside or outside the home, and the noise has been seen outside my home by numerous techs who have come out on the service calls.  There have been a lot of housing units built across the street from my home, and that seems to be when the issues started occuring - i think someone or something has been added to the line that is overloading or otherwise causing the line noise.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Aug 6, 2013 8:20:22 AM
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I PM's someone that i was advised might be able to help get this fixed, but it appears someone has now deleted not only the posts here on this thread but also the PM i sent...

 

I guess someone from AT&T is trying to tell me something...

I PM's someone that i was advised might be able to help get this fixed, but it appears someone has now deleted not only the posts here on this thread but also the PM i sent...

 

I guess someone from AT&T is trying to tell me something...

Re: Frequent loss of service

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Aug 6, 2013 4:05:29 PM
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In simple words, Noise margin (in circuits) is the amount of noise that a circuit can withstand. Noise margins are generally defined so that positive values ensure proper operation, and negative margins result in compromised operation, or perhaps outright failure

http://www.speedguide.net/faq_in_q.php?qid=355 states
What is considered good DSL Noise margin / SNR ?
Noise is a combination of unwanted interfering signal sources, such as crosstalk, radio frequency interference, distortion, etc.

Noise margin (signal-to-noise margin) measures the relative strength of the DSL signal-to-noise ratio (SNR).

Higher numbers repesent cleaner signals, with less noise. In some instances interleaving can help raise the noise margin to an acceptable level.
6dB or below noise margin is bad, it will experience no synch or intermittent synch problems
7dB-10dB is fair but does not leave much room for variances in conditions
11dB-20dB is good with little or no synch problems (if no large variation)
20dB-28dB is excellent 29dB or above is outstanding

Note that there may be short term bursts of noise that may drop the margin, but due to the sampling time of the management utility in your modem, will not necessarily show up in its interface.

Uverse VDSL functions best at 15 and above and basically does not work below 9.

Note,noise margin is an ever changing relationship between desired and undesired, a clean ratio can be changed by turning in a table saw or a neighbor using short transmitter...no transmission good SN, when transmission occurs affects SN if not properly grounded. That is the equipment that is producing the signal, a ham operator is responsible to ensure his equipment is set up properly and does not create unwanted frequency interference.

Those living in areas with buried cables are better protected than in areas with aerial cables. The ATT lines are grounded but the drop coming to your house and your inside feed are not thus acting like a big antenna picking up frequency interference that the RG sees as errors due to the change in SN ratio. If techs can verify issue is at or before NID then a grounded aerial drop may help but your inside wiring would still be affected. In industrial applications there is shielded cat5 , uverse is residential and does not install shielded Ethernet that would require you contacting and paying for shielded cable, wall jacks (grounded) and again if house ground is not proper could still have issue
Recommended to talk to your neighbors, enquire of interets s and if doing anything that may be causing unwanted RF.
Again what has changed in your environment?, new homes new neighbors possible creating RF that was not in system 8-9 months ago when according to you

Frequent loss of service
07-31-2013 12:25:31 PM

I have been having a lot of issues for the past few months with Link Retrain and dropped service - at least a few times every day, sometimes for a few minutes and sometimes for hours. I have tried to be patient, but no one from support seems to be able to get this issue fixed.
In simple words, Noise margin (in circuits) is the amount of noise that a circuit can withstand. Noise margins are generally defined so that positive values ensure proper operation, and negative margins result in compromised operation, or perhaps outright failure

http://www.speedguide.net/faq_in_q.php?qid=355 states
What is considered good DSL Noise margin / SNR ?
Noise is a combination of unwanted interfering signal sources, such as crosstalk, radio frequency interference, distortion, etc.

Noise margin (signal-to-noise margin) measures the relative strength of the DSL signal-to-noise ratio (SNR).

Higher numbers repesent cleaner signals, with less noise. In some instances interleaving can help raise the noise margin to an acceptable level.
6dB or below noise margin is bad, it will experience no synch or intermittent synch problems
7dB-10dB is fair but does not leave much room for variances in conditions
11dB-20dB is good with little or no synch problems (if no large variation)
20dB-28dB is excellent 29dB or above is outstanding

Note that there may be short term bursts of noise that may drop the margin, but due to the sampling time of the management utility in your modem, will not necessarily show up in its interface.

Uverse VDSL functions best at 15 and above and basically does not work below 9.

Note,noise margin is an ever changing relationship between desired and undesired, a clean ratio can be changed by turning in a table saw or a neighbor using short transmitter...no transmission good SN, when transmission occurs affects SN if not properly grounded. That is the equipment that is producing the signal, a ham operator is responsible to ensure his equipment is set up properly and does not create unwanted frequency interference.

Those living in areas with buried cables are better protected than in areas with aerial cables. The ATT lines are grounded but the drop coming to your house and your inside feed are not thus acting like a big antenna picking up frequency interference that the RG sees as errors due to the change in SN ratio. If techs can verify issue is at or before NID then a grounded aerial drop may help but your inside wiring would still be affected. In industrial applications there is shielded cat5 , uverse is residential and does not install shielded Ethernet that would require you contacting and paying for shielded cable, wall jacks (grounded) and again if house ground is not proper could still have issue
Recommended to talk to your neighbors, enquire of interets s and if doing anything that may be causing unwanted RF.
Again what has changed in your environment?, new homes new neighbors possible creating RF that was not in system 8-9 months ago when according to you

Frequent loss of service
07-31-2013 12:25:31 PM

I have been having a lot of issues for the past few months with Link Retrain and dropped service - at least a few times every day, sometimes for a few minutes and sometimes for hours. I have tried to be patient, but no one from support seems to be able to get this issue fixed.
*I am an AT&T employee and the postings on this site are my own and don’t necessarily represent AT&T’s position, strategies or opinions.

Re: Frequent loss of service

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Aug 7, 2013 7:11:34 AM
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I understand what the measured noise margin is - my service is fine 90% of the time (17 & above).

 

Which makes me think this is something that someone on the line has a bad device or something causing the noise, and when the device is turned off or not connected everything is fine.  I have also now confirmed with 2 of my neighbors that they have similar issued and one of them does not even have AT&T.

 

All of this combines to make me think something has happened in the new developement across the road where they are building a lot of new homes to cause these issues in the past 6 months.

 

But I have no way of troubleshooting anything outside of my home/yard and the techs that are coming are not helping.

I understand what the measured noise margin is - my service is fine 90% of the time (17 & above).

 

Which makes me think this is something that someone on the line has a bad device or something causing the noise, and when the device is turned off or not connected everything is fine.  I have also now confirmed with 2 of my neighbors that they have similar issued and one of them does not even have AT&T.

 

All of this combines to make me think something has happened in the new developement across the road where they are building a lot of new homes to cause these issues in the past 6 months.

 

But I have no way of troubleshooting anything outside of my home/yard and the techs that are coming are not helping.

Re: Frequent loss of service

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Aug 7, 2013 7:55:16 AM
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Edited by aviewer on Aug 7, 2013 at 8:02:05 AM

jim.ed - I like the idea of using a portable am radio to track down electro-magnetic radiation interference - The radio is portable, so you can travel around. We have all heard static on the am band - It will probably affect the whole band, but try tuning, especially at each end. The intensity should increase as you get closer to the source.

There were a few good posts with more details about doing this. I believe I recently posted two links, but do not see them now. Must have been on Sunday & yhey were lost. Perhaps someone else has them available for posting in this thread. I'll try a google. If I get them I will post.

 

I did not find the one I was thinking about  - But, I rememembered the old treadmill problem. There used to be a number of posts about treadmills generating much interference. Have not seen any recently. Probably, still a major source. Easy to check in your own house. More difficult in the nieghborhood.

jim.ed - I like the idea of using a portable am radio to track down electro-magnetic radiation interference - The radio is portable, so you can travel around. We have all heard static on the am band - It will probably affect the whole band, but try tuning, especially at each end. The intensity should increase as you get closer to the source.

There were a few good posts with more details about doing this. I believe I recently posted two links, but do not see them now. Must have been on Sunday & yhey were lost. Perhaps someone else has them available for posting in this thread. I'll try a google. If I get them I will post.

 

I did not find the one I was thinking about  - But, I rememembered the old treadmill problem. There used to be a number of posts about treadmills generating much interference. Have not seen any recently. Probably, still a major source. Easy to check in your own house. More difficult in the nieghborhood.

*The views and opinions expressed on this forum are purely my own. Any product claim, statistic, quote, or other representation about a product or service should be verified with the manufacturer, provider, or party.

Re: Frequent loss of service

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Aug 7, 2013 8:13:33 AM
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Unfortunately the techs have the same ability as you in determining exterior noise, they can verify and work on what they can control in Uverse system.
As this is starting to appear as an environment related from earlier post

Outside issues non uverse 1) thunderstorms 2) radio stations and short wave (ham radios) 3) atmospheric issues such as ionospheric at night

You have statements of neighbors being affected both Uverse and nonuverse (ATT) options are extremely limited till offender in located.
1) walk thru new development looking for possible short wave (ham radio) antenna if found need to talk with owner about them properly shielding their equipment
http://www.fcc.gov/guides/interference-defining-source
2) possible electrical interference being induced into power lines not air waves
http://www.arrl.org/fcc-power-utility-letter
http://www.arrl.org/part-15-radio-frequency-devices

And many other online resources state that once identified the offending device must be turned off till proper shielding is in place.
At this point outside of installing shield drop ATT responsible,
Shielded Ethernet your responsible
House grounding system your responsible
Electric power to home local utility responsible.

Again if neighborhood affected, non ATT included I honestly do not see continued calling will improve situation once a bonded drop ha been placed.
Also sounds as if changing service providers will not resolve issue, time to do some investigation and get the electric company involved.
Unfortunately the techs have the same ability as you in determining exterior noise, they can verify and work on what they can control in Uverse system.
As this is starting to appear as an environment related from earlier post

Outside issues non uverse 1) thunderstorms 2) radio stations and short wave (ham radios) 3) atmospheric issues such as ionospheric at night

You have statements of neighbors being affected both Uverse and nonuverse (ATT) options are extremely limited till offender in located.
1) walk thru new development looking for possible short wave (ham radio) antenna if found need to talk with owner about them properly shielding their equipment
http://www.fcc.gov/guides/interference-defining-source
2) possible electrical interference being induced into power lines not air waves
http://www.arrl.org/fcc-power-utility-letter
http://www.arrl.org/part-15-radio-frequency-devices

And many other online resources state that once identified the offending device must be turned off till proper shielding is in place.
At this point outside of installing shield drop ATT responsible,
Shielded Ethernet your responsible
House grounding system your responsible
Electric power to home local utility responsible.

Again if neighborhood affected, non ATT included I honestly do not see continued calling will improve situation once a bonded drop ha been placed.
Also sounds as if changing service providers will not resolve issue, time to do some investigation and get the electric company involved.
*I am an AT&T employee and the postings on this site are my own and don’t necessarily represent AT&T’s position, strategies or opinions.

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Aug 7, 2013 9:12:01 AM
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I am probably going to look then at going outside of the circuit for something and just have our cable turned off then and use a hotspot or something for internet and connect tv to laptop if no provider will work with me to get these issues fixed.

I am probably going to look then at going outside of the circuit for something and just have our cable turned off then and use a hotspot or something for internet and connect tv to laptop if no provider will work with me to get these issues fixed.

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Aug 20, 2013 2:22:39 PM
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My issue has been fixed after contacting Travis at AT&T Customer Care - there was a bad cable from my house to the junction in the alley.  Once that cable was replaced, I haven't seen any other issues since then - over 5 days.

 

Thanks.

My issue has been fixed after contacting Travis at AT&T Customer Care - there was a bad cable from my house to the junction in the alley.  Once that cable was replaced, I haven't seen any other issues since then - over 5 days.

 

Thanks.

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