putting a router behind the gateway

Teacher

putting a router behind the gateway

with my network, I want to be able to remote desktop into my server.  I haven't been able to get that going with port forwarding on the gateway.  So, I put my netgear router in DMZ plus on the gateway and hooked into the internet port on the netgear from the gateway.  I have dyndns setup on the router and it works fine

the problem i have is that I have no communication between my server and other computers on my network.  the server and my macbook connect to the netgear (macbook is wireless).  the other computers are connected to the gateway.  also, dns resolving sucks when connected to the netgear.  I found that replacing the default dns servers with opendns servers on the netgear tended to help things out.  I also found that originally when i had my server plugged in the gateway and connected wirelessly to the gateway, it couldn't stream video all that well.

i have the gateway set as 10.10.10.10 with a subnet of 255.255.255.0 (or /24 for the networking geeks)  and a dhcp pool from 10.10.10.11 - 10.10.10.25
i have my netgear set as 10.10.10.1 with a subnet or 255.255.255.0 and a dhcp pool from 10.10.10.2 to 10.10.10.9

i can't ping the gateway or any of the other computer when connected to the netgear.  vice versa when connect to the gateway.  likewise, SMB file sharing will not work either.


i might just ax the whole setup and just put all my computers behind the netgear.  i just wish dns resolving was better

Message 1 of 16 (1,028 Views)

Re: putting a router behind the gateway


dorkultra wrote:
with my network, I want to be able to remote desktop into my server.  I haven't been able to get that going with port forwarding on the gateway.  So, I put my netgear router in DMZ plus on the gateway and hooked into the internet port on the netgear from the gateway.  I have dyndns setup on the router and it works fine

the problem i have is that I have no communication between my server and other computers on my network.  the server and my macbook connect to the netgear (macbook is wireless).  the other computers are connected to the gateway.  also, dns resolving sucks when connected to the netgear.  I found that replacing the default dns servers with opendns servers on the netgear tended to help things out.  I also found that originally when i had my server plugged in the gateway and connected wirelessly to the gateway, it couldn't stream video all that well.

i have the gateway set as 10.10.10.10 with a subnet of 255.255.255.0 (or /24 for the networking geeks)  and a dhcp pool from 10.10.10.11 - 10.10.10.25
i have my netgear set as 10.10.10.1 with a subnet or 255.255.255.0 and a dhcp pool from 10.10.10.2 to 10.10.10.9

i can't ping the gateway or any of the other computer when connected to the netgear.  vice versa when connect to the gateway.  likewise, SMB file sharing will not work either.


i might just ax the whole setup and just put all my computers behind the netgear.  i just wish dns resolving was better


 

If you have highly "customized" network, and don't want to reconfigure everything, I suggest using your own router behind the RG.


This is what I did to use an "internal" router. I set my "internal" router to use DHCP for the WAN address, plugged it's WAN port in to the RG, let the RG assign a local address to the "internal" router and then set that address to the DMZ in the RG. When I go to the "internal" router it shows as having the same WAN, gateway, and DNS addresses that the RG uses.


I set the "internal" router to assign addresses to "my" side of the network in a different IP range than what the RG uses (192.168.2.* instead of 192.168.1.*) but using the same subnet mask (255.255.255.0). My internet works fine with no interuptions and local network tasks (back ups, streaming, etc.) work as expected. I can also still access the RG from "my" side of the network when I need to without having to change any network settings or swap any cables. Leave DHCP running on the RG. You do not need to disable the firewall in the RG as the DMZ will open a pinhole through it to the address you pick (your internal router). If you have existing wireless on your router that your satisfied with and want to keep, just make sure to turn off the wireless in the RG.


As for the STBs they should be run straight out of the RG with CAT5 or RG6 Coax.


If you currently have your router behind a basic DSL or Cable modem, Your setup will be pretty much the same. The RG will replace your modem, then go into your existing router and change it's internet connection type to Dynamic or DHCP. Then change it's internal network IP adress and DHCP Pool and you should be good to go.

 

 

 

 

 

__________________________________________________________
How can you be in two places at once, when your not anywhere at all?
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I realy want to become a procrastinator, but I keep putting it off.
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There are three kinds of people, those that can count, and those that can't.

                              

Message 2 of 16 (1,028 Views)
Teacher

Re: putting a router behind the gateway

thanks for the reply, however i've read the same exact quote in several other threads.

i ended up putting all of my pcs on the netgear router, so that they are on the same network.  dns resolving is still slow.  it seems like it tends to slow down over the course of several days.  power cycling the netgear router solves the issue.  i never had this issue when i used a router with dsl.  i tried 2 different netgear routers and both produced the same results.

also, i ran out of ethernet ports on the gateway.  i have 3 pcs and 4 STBs.  I ended up plugging in 3 STBs to the gateway and using RG6 coax for another STB, i'm suprised to see that it works so well over coax.  i even tested it by unscrewing the coax nearly all the way and the signal did not tile up.

 

 

Message 3 of 16 (1,028 Views)

Re: putting a router behind the gateway


dorkultra wrote:

thanks for the reply, however i've read the same exact quote in several other threads.

i ended up putting all of my pcs on the netgear router, so that they are on the same network.  dns resolving is still slow.  it seems like it tends to slow down over the course of several days.  power cycling the netgear router solves the issue.  i never had this issue when i used a router with dsl.  i tried 2 different netgear routers and both produced the same results.

also, i ran out of ethernet ports on the gateway.  i have 3 pcs and 4 STBs.  I ended up plugging in 3 STBs to the gateway and using RG6 coax for another STB, i'm suprised to see that it works so well over coax.  i even tested it by unscrewing the coax nearly all the way and the signal did not tile up.

 

 


 

Right, but pay attention to the addressing scheme. I beleive your problem is the DHCP servers in the RG and the Linksys are butting heads. Try changing the Linksys and it DHCP pool addresses to 10.10.11.*  subnet mask 255.255.255.0

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

__________________________________________________________
How can you be in two places at once, when your not anywhere at all?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I realy want to become a procrastinator, but I keep putting it off.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are three kinds of people, those that can count, and those that can't.

                              

Message 4 of 16 (1,028 Views)
Scholar

Re: putting a router behind the gateway


dorkultra wrote:

i have the gateway set as 10.10.10.10 with a subnet of 255.255.255.0 (or /24 for the networking geeks) and a dhcp pool from 10.10.10.11 - 10.10.10.25 have my netgear set as 10.10.10.1 with a subnet or 255.255.255.0 and a dhcp pool from 10.10.10.2 to 10.10.10.9

i can't ping the gateway or any of the other computer when connected to the netgear. vice versa when connect to the gateway. likewise, SMB file sharing will not work either.


i might just ax the whole setup and just put all my computers behind the netgear. i just wish dns resolving was better


Your router behind a router is not setup correctly based on what you posted. Please the bold items from your post above. You are using a /24 CIDR which means a full Class C network. That means one router (gateway address), one broadcast address. and 254 total hosts (this includes the router address).

 

You either need to have two Class C networks for example: 10.10.10.1 and 10.10.10.2 or you need to use a different CIDR using the table below and changing the subnet(s) as needed to Supernet.

 

For example:

 

CIDR Subnet Mask Notation # Hosts

/25 255.255.255.128 1/2 126
/26 255.255.255.192 1/4 62
/27 255.255.255.224 1/8 32
/28 255.255.255.240 1/16 16
/29 255.255.255.248 1/32 8
/30 255.255.255.252 1/64 4

 

Here is a good link for the Setup a router behind RG: http://www.sbbala.com/uverse/pg2.html

You also should not use any proxy DNS on any of your devices. There is a confirmed problem with the RG and using it's DNS proxy. For now hard code the anycast DNS Servers or another providers DNS for now.

 

68.94.156.1 - dnsr1.sbcglobal.net
68.94.157.1 - dnsr2.sbcglobal.net

 

Back to your initial problem of use RDC to get into your network using only the RG, it works fine for me. You just need to configure the RG correctly. If you decide to try that again, just let us know and we can help you.

 

Dave
Message Edited by dave006 on 03-07-2009 10:24 AM
Message 5 of 16 (1,028 Views)
Teacher

Re: putting a router behind the gateway

^ oh yeah, i totally forgot about cidr addressing.  i knew i would have conflicts  thanks!

like i said, i ended up plugging all my computers into the router and putting the router in dmz plus mode, just like defined in that link above

i still find that it will occasionally time out or take forever to resolve dns sometimes


Pinging google.navigation.opendns.com [208.69.36.230] with 32 bytes of data:

Request timed out.
Request timed out.
Reply from 208.69.36.230: bytes=32 time=78ms TTL=54
Request timed out.

Ping statistics for 208.69.36.230:
    Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 1, Lost = 3 (75% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
    Minimum = 78ms, Maximum = 78ms, Average = 78ms


Pinging google.navigation.opendns.com [208.69.36.230] with 32 bytes of data:

Request timed out.
Request timed out.
Request timed out.
Request timed out.

Ping statistics for 208.69.36.230:
    Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 0, Lost = 4 (100% loss),


Pinging google.navigation.opendns.com [208.69.36.231] with 32 bytes of data:

Request timed out.
Reply from 208.69.36.231: bytes=32 time=49ms TTL=54
Request timed out.
Request timed out.

Ping statistics for 208.69.36.231:
    Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 1, Lost = 3 (75% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
    Minimum = 49ms, Maximum = 49ms, Average = 49ms


sometimes it gets this bad....i can't find anywhere to change the dns on the gateway
Message 6 of 16 (1,028 Views)
Teacher

Re: putting a router behind the gateway

also, going to drop opendns and try the dns provided and see if that makes any difference

i just put it in on my router and seems to be working fine.  i'll give it a couple of days and see what happens
Message 7 of 16 (1,028 Views)

Re: putting a router behind the gateway

Well, dorkultra, you said you read my quotes on setup, but have you actually tried to configure it that way? It seems like you've tried everything else. With your DSL you probably only had a modem to deal with (or a modem/router in bridge mode), with the Uverse gateway you can not disable it's routing and DHCP functions without screwing up your TV. So, you have two choices, put the netgear router in bridge mode (turn off it's DHCP server) or try a different IP range like I suggested. I think your problems will clear up then. As far as DNS, at this point I let Uverse gateway (RG) use it's default DNS servers and I manually input OpenDNS servers into my Secondary Router (a $30 Ativa from Office Depot) for my computers to use.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

__________________________________________________________
How can you be in two places at once, when your not anywhere at all?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I realy want to become a procrastinator, but I keep putting it off.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are three kinds of people, those that can count, and those that can't.

                              

Message 8 of 16 (1,028 Views)
Contributor

Re: putting a router behind the gateway

I just had my service started Friday.  I have a SonicWall TZ170 plugged into the 2Wire.  My PC's are connected to my Router.  I have talked to multiple people with AT&T and received multiple answers on how to get my Static IP's.  I've put the Static IP into the WAN side of my router.  I've set my WAN side to get it via DHCP from the 2Wire and configured the 2Wire to give it one of my Static IP's.  But, no matter what I do the 2Wire will stay up for an indeterminate amount of time (a few minutes to a few hours) until it goes haywire and I lose TV/Internet/Phones until I unplug my router from the 2Wire.  I suspect they don't have something configured right on their side.

 

My SonicWall is not a DHCP server.  I have a Windows SBS server that handles that and it is a different subnet than what the 2Wire is using.

Any thoughts?

 

Jeff

Message 9 of 16 (1,028 Views)

Re: putting a router behind the gateway


U-Confused wrote:

I just had my service started Friday.  I have a SonicWall TZ170 plugged into the 2Wire.  My PC's are connected to my Router.  I have talked to multiple people with AT&T and received multiple answers on how to get my Static IP's.  I've put the Static IP into the WAN side of my router.  I've set my WAN side to get it via DHCP from the 2Wire and configured the 2Wire to give it one of my Static IP's.  But, no matter what I do the 2Wire will stay up for an indeterminate amount of time (a few minutes to a few hours) until it goes haywire and I lose TV/Internet/Phones until I unplug my router from the 2Wire.  I suspect they don't have something configured right on their side.

 

My SonicWall is not a DHCP server.  I have a Windows SBS server that handles that and it is a different subnet than what the 2Wire is using.

Any thoughts?

 

Jeff


 

Someone should come along and fill in the details on this, but I believe you need to go to the "Edit Advanced Home Network Settings" page and edit the "Public Routed Subinterface" settings to route one of your static addresses to your router.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

__________________________________________________________
How can you be in two places at once, when your not anywhere at all?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I realy want to become a procrastinator, but I keep putting it off.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are three kinds of people, those that can count, and those that can't.

                              

Message 10 of 16 (1,028 Views)
Scholar

Re: putting a router behind the gateway

Ultradork -


I don't see it specifically mentioned in this thread - so I'll come out and state the obvious ...

 

You have an issue that you have two routers (the RG and your provided Netgear) set up claiming to be on the same IP subnet.  Unless you changed what you stated at the top of this post - you have both your Netgear's internal interfaced configured on 10.10.10.0/24 (meaning all addresses 10.10.10.1-254 are on a single subnet) and the same setting on the internal interface of the RG.

 

That creates quite a confusing situation for the RG, when it receives a reply from the outside to some address on your internal network - let's say ... 10.10.10.2 -> where is the RG supposed to forward that response?  To the switch on its own internal switch - or to your Netgear for routing to its internal interface?  Follow me here?  You have two subnets that are the same inside the RG.

 

That is most likely what is leading to the intermittent routing of responses - esp regarding DNS.

 

I strongly urge you to pick separate internal subnets for each of your NetGear and your RG - even if you place the RG into the DMZ plus mode.  Please note DMZ Plus mode on the RG is sort of a 1:1 NAT where it NATS all traffic inbound (not requesed by OTHER hosts inside the RG) to the external interface on your NetGear.

 

As I think was mildly suggested by one other response above - if you place your NetGear in the DMZ Plus of your RG AND also change the subnet behind your NetGear to be something like 10.10.11.0/24 then you will be good to go.  Also, this might be a duh, but if you have a lot of hosts or other things setup with fixed IP addresses behind your NetGear, and the only things otherwise behind your RG are the Uverse boxes - it might be easier to move the internal LAN subnet behind the RG to a different subnet like -> 10.10.11.0/24.  Either way, you should not have two routers hooked to each other that are trying to have the same subnets on either side of their routed interfaces.  Doing so will get extremely unpredictable results - that will very much depend upon the specifics of the product.  In most cases - it probably won't work.

 

Hope this is helpful.

Message 11 of 16 (615 Views)
Scholar

Re: putting a router behind the gateway

U-confused -

 

It might be helpful if you clarify what you mean by your "static IPs".  My understanding of the Uverse product is that AT&T provides you with one single dynamic IP address.  You can go into your RG, and when you plug your own personally supplied firewall/router in behind the RG - it will often point out that it discovered a Router behind Router config - and you should tell it to place your personally supplied firwall/router in DMZ Plus mode.

 

Configure your firewall/router's WAN interface to get its IP via DHCP, and reboot it.  The AT&T RG will then pass the AT&T granted 'dynamic' IP address to be the WAN IP on your firewall/router as well.  As it so happens, AT&T does not typically change that IP - even though it is dynamic.  If you wish, you could later go in and type it in as "static" in your firwall/router, or you might set up a service like DYNDNS inside your firewall router in the event AT&T ever does move your IP address.


See if that helps.

Message 12 of 16 (615 Views)
Teacher

Re: putting a router behind the gateway

well, i actually posted in another thread.  like i said, i switched back and put my computers all behind the router.  i have also hard coded my att ip address and dns information into the router. also, i changed my router back to 192.168.0.1 /24 (likewise, my RG is still on 10.10.10.10/24)  i gave it a day and it still stops resolving dns every few minutes.  if you look at http://utalk.att.com/utalk/board/message?board.id=HSIA&thread.id=9202&page=2, it shows a ping that i sent out and then it started skipping sequence because it did not get a response.

 

honestly, i'm at a loss here.  i really don't know why it is dropping the connection and not resolving dns every once in a while.  i logged into the gateway and it does not list any major errors

 

 

 

also, i found that turning on upnp doesn't affect it either, but i didn't think it would.  i ended up ordering a new linksys router with dd-wrt on it.  i'll see how that works out
Message 13 of 16 (615 Views)

Re: putting a router behind the gateway

bsdsmb,

 

You have more patience than I. I gave up on dork the third time I told him to change his IP range on his internal router.

 

As far as U-cofused goes, I believe he has the newly available Static IP package. I believe that would require him to use the "Public Routed Subinterface" settings in the RG, which basically creates an individual DMZ like pass-through for each of the 5 static addresses, and you use the "Public Routed Subinterface" settings to point the Public IPs towards your servers (or routers as the case may be).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

__________________________________________________________
How can you be in two places at once, when your not anywhere at all?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I realy want to become a procrastinator, but I keep putting it off.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are three kinds of people, those that can count, and those that can't.

                              

Message 14 of 16 (615 Views)
Contributor

Re: putting a router behind the gateway

Yes.  I have the static IP package.  The tech showed up to do the install but knew nothing of static IP's or how configure them.  He admitted he didn't even know anything about IP's altogether.  He said he would get the TV's/VOIP phones working and make sure I could plug one computer directly into the 2Wire and get on the Internet and he would call it a day.  I would have to call in to find out anything beyond that.  I won't even go into the various phone calls and idiotic advice I was given before I stumbled onto this thread on Saturday.  I utilized the advice posted here but am still having issues. 

 

An example of what I'm talking about:

Saturday:  (From first thing in the morning until midnight) 2Wire loses sync and everything is down.  Disconnect my SonicWall from the 2Wire and after a minute it syncs back up.  Plug SonicWall back in and after 2-20 minutes cycle starts over.

Sunday:  Everything working fine until noon.  2Wire loses sync and everything is down.  Disconnect my SonicWall from the 2Wire and after a minute it syncs back up.  Plug SonicWall back in and after 2-20 minutes cycle starts over.  This goes on until midnight.  At midnight, everything stays up with no issues.

Monday: System still up until 5pm.  It starts the cycle over again but only does this for about 1 hour and then stays up the rest of the evening.  The television picture occasionally freezes or gets distorted but everything else functions as you would expect.

Tuesday:  Everything still up but waiting to see if it starts again.

Message Edited by U-Confused on 03-10-2009 12:31 PM
Message 15 of 16 (615 Views)
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