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Posted Jan 24, 2010
12:00:55 PM
Line Stats Analysis Results

This thread will contain the results of the analysis of everyone's line stats that have been posted in the Data/Stats Collection Thread.

 

My initial analysis is not focused so much on distance from the VRAD.  The reason for this is that not too many people have distances that have been told to them by a tech using their specialized meters.  Furthermore, different line conditions can cause inaccuracy in their measured distances.

 

As it turns out, distance from the VRAD isn't the most important thing regarding the type and quality of service that you get anyway.  Instead, the wiring gauge, presence/absence of bridge taps, and the noise margin (signal-to-noise ratio) of the line are much more important.

 

To this end, the data that has been posted in the Data/Stats Collection Thread led to a rock-solid and extremely useful correlation that can be used to immediately judge the quality of your line and the service you can receive.  That correlation is the Downstream Noise Margin and the Max Line Rate.

 

Using only these two parameters, you can tell if A) Your line is working properly (i.e.. no bridge taps), B) What gauge wire is running from the VRAD to your NID, and C) What line profile you should be able to get.

 

Please note that I arrived at the wire gauge conclusions here because there are two distinct groupings of data points.  I am assuming the difference between them is due to wire gauge, because A) It is known that different neighborhoods around the country use two different wire gauges, 22 gauge, and 24 gauge, B) Thinner wire (24 gauge) would have higher attenuation in the high frequencies, which would reduce the max line rate for a given signal-to-noise ratio, which is exactly what the graph shows.  It is possible that the two groupings of data are due to a different cause, but until I either gather more data or have references to other possible conclusions, I'm going to assume the difference is due to wire gauge even though I cannot currently prove that with certainty.

 

There is a 3rd grouping of data that shows some people with a drastically reduced max line rate.  I'm fairly certain these people have a bridge tap on their line that is reducing the max line rate.  If their line was conditioned by I&R to remove the bridge tap, their max line rate would jump up into one of the other two groupings.  I have witnessed this first-hand, as my initial installation was on a line that had a bridge tap.  When the bridge tap was removed, the max line rate shot up by over 15000 Kbps.  I unfortunately cannot compare the numbers that I had at that point to the numbers I have now because those older numbers were using the VDSL1 protocol and at least 2 revisions earlier of the RG firmware.  Those values cannot be reliably compared to today's values obtained with the VDSL2 protocol and the current RG firmware revision (5.29.135.47).

 

Here's the first fully analyzed chart:

 

 

 

 

 

You can plainly see how well the data groups are formed here.  There are two distinct lines of people with properly working service, and a 3rd line of people with service that is probably not running right.  In addition, you can see the very rare people who are so close to the VRAD that they are currently being capped to a maximum line rate of 64000 Kbps.

 

For those of you who have some background in statistics, the linear correlation coefficients (R^2) for each of the 3 trend lines on the chart was > 0.98.  (This means that the computed lines fit the actual data very nicely).

 

The allowable line profile areas were computed by assuming that a line capacity of 80% is required for properly working service.  Line capacity = downstream profile rate / max line rate.  For example, for a properly working 32/5 profile, the downstream profile rate is 32200 Kbps.  FOr a line capacity of 80%, that means that Max Line Rate = Downstream Profile Rate / 80% = 32200 / .8 =  40250 Kbps, which I rounded to 40000.  The other rates separating the profiles were computed similarly.  The exception is the border for No Service, where I upped the allowed line capacity to 85% to allow just a little less max line rate.

 

The people whom I believe have a bridge tap on their line are very interesting.  The bridge tap reduces the max line rate that the line could theoretically carry by nearly 30%.  In the particular case of the person with an 18.5 dBm noise margin and 29000 Kbps max rate, having the line conditioned could conceivably get him a max line rate of 41000 Kbps, which would boost his allowable profile from 19/2 to 32/5 !  He could conceivable go from 1HD/3SD to 3HD/1SD just by having the bridge tap removed.

 

The person with the 10.0 dBm noise margin and a 19200 Kbps max rate is certainly experiencing poor service.  The line capacity in his case is at 100%, with no margin for errors.

 

 

In short, this chart can tell you at a glance whether your service is operating in agreement with everyone else's service.  It can immediately identify what profile you should be on or be able to get.  It can tell you if your line needs conditioning to have a bridge tap removed.  Based on my assumptions, it can also tell you your wire gauge, although that parameter is questionable.

 

When people post their line stats, this chart can be very useful in quickly determining if they are experiencing line problems or if their service is in agreement with normally working service.

 

This thread will contain the results of the analysis of everyone's line stats that have been posted in the Data/Stats Collection Thread.

 

My initial analysis is not focused so much on distance from the VRAD.  The reason for this is that not too many people have distances that have been told to them by a tech using their specialized meters.  Furthermore, different line conditions can cause inaccuracy in their measured distances.

 

As it turns out, distance from the VRAD isn't the most important thing regarding the type and quality of service that you get anyway.  Instead, the wiring gauge, presence/absence of bridge taps, and the noise margin (signal-to-noise ratio) of the line are much more important.

 

To this end, the data that has been posted in the Data/Stats Collection Thread led to a rock-solid and extremely useful correlation that can be used to immediately judge the quality of your line and the service you can receive.  That correlation is the Downstream Noise Margin and the Max Line Rate.

 

Using only these two parameters, you can tell if A) Your line is working properly (i.e.. no bridge taps), B) What gauge wire is running from the VRAD to your NID, and C) What line profile you should be able to get.

 

Please note that I arrived at the wire gauge conclusions here because there are two distinct groupings of data points.  I am assuming the difference between them is due to wire gauge, because A) It is known that different neighborhoods around the country use two different wire gauges, 22 gauge, and 24 gauge, B) Thinner wire (24 gauge) would have higher attenuation in the high frequencies, which would reduce the max line rate for a given signal-to-noise ratio, which is exactly what the graph shows.  It is possible that the two groupings of data are due to a different cause, but until I either gather more data or have references to other possible conclusions, I'm going to assume the difference is due to wire gauge even though I cannot currently prove that with certainty.

 

There is a 3rd grouping of data that shows some people with a drastically reduced max line rate.  I'm fairly certain these people have a bridge tap on their line that is reducing the max line rate.  If their line was conditioned by I&R to remove the bridge tap, their max line rate would jump up into one of the other two groupings.  I have witnessed this first-hand, as my initial installation was on a line that had a bridge tap.  When the bridge tap was removed, the max line rate shot up by over 15000 Kbps.  I unfortunately cannot compare the numbers that I had at that point to the numbers I have now because those older numbers were using the VDSL1 protocol and at least 2 revisions earlier of the RG firmware.  Those values cannot be reliably compared to today's values obtained with the VDSL2 protocol and the current RG firmware revision (5.29.135.47).

 

Here's the first fully analyzed chart:

 

 

 

 

 

You can plainly see how well the data groups are formed here.  There are two distinct lines of people with properly working service, and a 3rd line of people with service that is probably not running right.  In addition, you can see the very rare people who are so close to the VRAD that they are currently being capped to a maximum line rate of 64000 Kbps.

 

For those of you who have some background in statistics, the linear correlation coefficients (R^2) for each of the 3 trend lines on the chart was > 0.98.  (This means that the computed lines fit the actual data very nicely).

 

The allowable line profile areas were computed by assuming that a line capacity of 80% is required for properly working service.  Line capacity = downstream profile rate / max line rate.  For example, for a properly working 32/5 profile, the downstream profile rate is 32200 Kbps.  FOr a line capacity of 80%, that means that Max Line Rate = Downstream Profile Rate / 80% = 32200 / .8 =  40250 Kbps, which I rounded to 40000.  The other rates separating the profiles were computed similarly.  The exception is the border for No Service, where I upped the allowed line capacity to 85% to allow just a little less max line rate.

 

The people whom I believe have a bridge tap on their line are very interesting.  The bridge tap reduces the max line rate that the line could theoretically carry by nearly 30%.  In the particular case of the person with an 18.5 dBm noise margin and 29000 Kbps max rate, having the line conditioned could conceivably get him a max line rate of 41000 Kbps, which would boost his allowable profile from 19/2 to 32/5 !  He could conceivable go from 1HD/3SD to 3HD/1SD just by having the bridge tap removed.

 

The person with the 10.0 dBm noise margin and a 19200 Kbps max rate is certainly experiencing poor service.  The line capacity in his case is at 100%, with no margin for errors.

 

 

In short, this chart can tell you at a glance whether your service is operating in agreement with everyone else's service.  It can immediately identify what profile you should be on or be able to get.  It can tell you if your line needs conditioning to have a bridge tap removed.  Based on my assumptions, it can also tell you your wire gauge, although that parameter is questionable.

 

When people post their line stats, this chart can be very useful in quickly determining if they are experiencing line problems or if their service is in agreement with normally working service.

 

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Jan 31, 2010 2:04:40 PM
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OK, here is a revised Noise Margin vs. Max Line Rate graph, now that it is known that the data shows a correlation between profiles rather than wire gauge.

 

 

 

 

 

This graph shows a bit more information than the previous one.

 

For properly working service that won't have a lot of errors, you need two things:

 

1) Sufficient max line rate so that the line capacity doesn't exceed approximately 80% when compared to your profile rate.  Line capacities exceeding approximately 80% causes the line to begin to take some errors.

 

Line Capacity = (Downstream Profile Rate / Max Line Rate) * 100

 

2) Sufficient noise margin such that the line does not take errors.  From people's stats, I am estimating the minimum required noise margin to be around 12.0 dB.

 

These two parameters gives rise to the two red areas on the graph, where the noise margin is too low for reliable service, or the max line rate is too low even for the 19/2 profile.  The minimum required max line rate for the 19/2 profile is given as 21800 kbps.  This is where the 19/2 profile line (derived from customer data) hits the 12 dB noise margin, for a line capacity of 88%.  This line capacity is a little high, but since the alternative is no service, it may turn out to be sufficient.

 

Similarly, the 25/2 profile line intersects the 12 dB noise margin limit at 30400 kbps, establishing that as the minimum required max line rate for the 25/2 profile, at a line capacity of 83%. 

 

Finally, the 32/5 profile line intersects the 12 dB noise margin limit at 39700 kbps, establishing that as the minimum required max line rate for the 32/5 profile, at a line capacity of 81%.

 

 

What is very interesting here is how we now know that the noise margin changes significantly with the selected profile rate.  We also know that the max line rate stays relatively constant when the profile rate is changed (see djrobx's data a few posts above).  Because of this nearly constant max line rate and the consistency of the customer data which has given us the profile lines, we can now predict where you will end up on the graph when your profile rate is changed.

 

For example, let's look at the customer who is currently on the 25/2 profile line (red) at an 18 dB noise margin and 41000 kbps max rate.  When this customer is upgraded to 32/5, the max line rate will stay nearly constant at 41000 kbps (it may go down slightly, no more than a few hundred kbps), but his service point will jump horizontally to the left (constant max line rate) to land on the blue 32/5 profile line at a much lower noise margin.  We can predict from the graph that his noise margin will be around 13.0 dB.

 

Since we know what the new noise margin will be due to the profile lines, we can now also identify by noise margin alone those people who should be able to move to a higher profile.  For example, people on the 19/2 profile who exceed a noise margin of 19.0 dB should be able to move to the 25/2 profile, since their new noise margin will be above 12.0 dB.  Similarly, people on the 25/2 profile whose noise margin exceeds 16.5 dB should be able to move to the 32/5 profile, again because their new noise margin will be above 12.0 dB.

 

And just for fun, we can also estimate that those people on the 32/5 profile with a noise margin exceeding some value would theoretically be able to move to an even higher profile.  Assuming the noise margin drops 6 dB for an increase in the profile rate of 8-10 Mbps, we could theoretically predict the existence of a new 40/5 profile that would be eligible for rollout to people on 32/5 who exceed 18 dB of noise margin and 50000 kbps of max line rate.

 

 

Now, since noise margin and max line rate are locked together on these profile lines, predicting whether a person has a noisy line or a bridge tap becomes more problematic.  The Dohrenburg DMT plot can be instrumental here.  Removing a bridge tap or removing a noise source can raise the max line rate (and noise margin with it), possible allowing someone to upgrade their profile.  However, this has to be done on a case-by-case basis, as there is no guarantee how much additional max line rate/noise margin you can achieve.

 

Accepted Solution

Line Stats Analysis Results

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Mar 6, 2010 11:18:44 AM
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Here's my link:  http://adslm.dohrenburg.net/tools/db-link.php?link=1879

 

I'm about 2,170 ft from VRAD

 

Thanks.

Here's my link:  http://adslm.dohrenburg.net/tools/db-link.php?link=1879

 

I'm about 2,170 ft from VRAD

 

Thanks.

Re: Line Stats Analysis Results

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Mar 6, 2010 11:35:15 AM
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ACE - Expert

You are still on a 25M profile and just qualify in SomeJoe's chart for 32/5 profile if and when

they ever download it to you.  From what I see, there is a mild sine wave in your first two blocks

that might indicate a bridge tap on your line; making it appear farther away than it is. :smileywink:


Chris

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Please NO SD stretch-o-vision or 480 SD HD Channels
1-800-983-2811 to avoid Mr. Voice Recognition
YRMV IMHO Simply a U-verse user, nothing more

You are still on a 25M profile and just qualify in SomeJoe's chart for 32/5 profile if and when

they ever download it to you.  From what I see, there is a mild sine wave in your first two blocks

that might indicate a bridge tap on your line; making it appear farther away than it is. :smileywink:


Chris

________________________________________________________________________

Please NO SD stretch-o-vision or 480 SD HD Channels
1-800-983-2811 to avoid Mr. Voice Recognition
YRMV IMHO Simply a U-verse user, nothing more

*The views and opinions expressed on this forum are purely my own. Any product claim, statistic, quote, or other representation about a product or service should be verified with the manufacturer, provider, or party.

Re: Line Stats Analysis Results

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Mar 6, 2010 11:55:40 AM
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I was put on 32/5 and taken back-off when the tech came out to install all cat 5 and the gigabit switch.  How would I know if there is a bridge tap and should I be concerned about that considering my recent stats?  Fortunately the system has been going down late at night or when I'm not home.  Right now, I'm watching the Louisville / Syracuse game and it looks terrible;  seems like orange uniforms always cause the tv to look more fuzzy.  I have calibrated my Samsung tv.

I was put on 32/5 and taken back-off when the tech came out to install all cat 5 and the gigabit switch.  How would I know if there is a bridge tap and should I be concerned about that considering my recent stats?  Fortunately the system has been going down late at night or when I'm not home.  Right now, I'm watching the Louisville / Syracuse game and it looks terrible;  seems like orange uniforms always cause the tv to look more fuzzy.  I have calibrated my Samsung tv.

Re: Line Stats Analysis Results

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Mar 7, 2010 9:44:40 AM
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ACE - Expert

 

Techs have to come and put a meter on your line to find a bridge tap.  Removal of that may

possibley give you a highr max sync rate for more stability in your service.


As the to 'orange' problem, probably the color level is set a bit high.  I've found on certain

shows I have to turn the color level down as they seen unnaturally colored. :smileywink:


Chris

______________________________________________________________________

Please NO SD stretch-o-vision or 480 SD HD Channels
1-800-983-2811 to avoid Mr. Voice Recognition
YRMV IMHO Simply a U-verse user, nothing more

 

Techs have to come and put a meter on your line to find a bridge tap.  Removal of that may

possibley give you a highr max sync rate for more stability in your service.


As the to 'orange' problem, probably the color level is set a bit high.  I've found on certain

shows I have to turn the color level down as they seen unnaturally colored. :smileywink:


Chris

______________________________________________________________________

Please NO SD stretch-o-vision or 480 SD HD Channels
1-800-983-2811 to avoid Mr. Voice Recognition
YRMV IMHO Simply a U-verse user, nothing more

*The views and opinions expressed on this forum are purely my own. Any product claim, statistic, quote, or other representation about a product or service should be verified with the manufacturer, provider, or party.

Re: Line Stats Analysis Results

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Mar 7, 2010 6:43:12 PM
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ACE - Master

 


mibrnsurg wrote:

Don't worry Phil, it's okay.  Just about everybody on Uverse gets the tone 64 & 576 errors. 

All the rest of it is just normal for your distance from the VRAD and max sync rate. :smileywink:


Chris

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Please NO SD stretch-o-vision or 480 SD HD Channels
1-800-983-2811 to avoid Mr. Voice Recognition
YRMV IMHO Simply a U-verse user, nothing more


 

OK, Chris.  Thankyou very much.  I figured it couldn't be too bad.  UV is pretty much flawless for us these days. Oh...I shouldn't have said that.  Probably jinxed us.:smileywink:

 

The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other peoples' money. .......Margaret Thatcher

 


mibrnsurg wrote:

Don't worry Phil, it's okay.  Just about everybody on Uverse gets the tone 64 & 576 errors. 

All the rest of it is just normal for your distance from the VRAD and max sync rate. :smileywink:


Chris

_____________________________________________________________________

Please NO SD stretch-o-vision or 480 SD HD Channels
1-800-983-2811 to avoid Mr. Voice Recognition
YRMV IMHO Simply a U-verse user, nothing more


 

OK, Chris.  Thankyou very much.  I figured it couldn't be too bad.  UV is pretty much flawless for us these days. Oh...I shouldn't have said that.  Probably jinxed us.:smileywink:

 

The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other peoples' money. .......Margaret Thatcher
*The views and opinions expressed on this forum are purely my own. Any product claim, statistic, quote, or other representation about a product or service should be verified with the manufacturer, provider, or party.

Re: Line Stats Analysis Results (Update)

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Mar 8, 2010 6:58:26 AM
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Re: Line Stats Analysis Results

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Mar 8, 2010 7:37:20 AM
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ACE - Expert

I'l have to say you got the best bit load chart increase I've seen between the 25M and 32M profiles

ever.  Hopefully it will remain stable and you'll be able to get the 3d HD and/or 24M internet when it

goes nationwide. :smileywink:

 

Chris

____________________________________________________________________________

Please NO SD stretch-o-vision or 480 SD HD Channels
1-800-983-2811 to avoid Mr. Voice Recognition
YRMV IMHO Simply a U-verse user, nothing more

I'l have to say you got the best bit load chart increase I've seen between the 25M and 32M profiles

ever.  Hopefully it will remain stable and you'll be able to get the 3d HD and/or 24M internet when it

goes nationwide. :smileywink:

 

Chris

____________________________________________________________________________

Please NO SD stretch-o-vision or 480 SD HD Channels
1-800-983-2811 to avoid Mr. Voice Recognition
YRMV IMHO Simply a U-verse user, nothing more

*The views and opinions expressed on this forum are purely my own. Any product claim, statistic, quote, or other representation about a product or service should be verified with the manufacturer, provider, or party.

Re: Line Stats Analysis Results

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Mar 12, 2010 10:45:25 PM
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Teacher

Here's one for you guys

http://adslm.dohrenburg.net/tools/db-link.php?link=1938

Can you see anything interesting in it (I havent figured out how to interpret the Interferance at 1.37 and how good (or bad) it is in the middle and higher frequencies (it goes higher than some of the other 25M I looked at, afaik we dont have the 32M profile rolled out here in Saratoga, CA (near San Jose))

 

Thanks

Steve

 

Here's one for you guys

http://adslm.dohrenburg.net/tools/db-link.php?link=1938

Can you see anything interesting in it (I havent figured out how to interpret the Interferance at 1.37 and how good (or bad) it is in the middle and higher frequencies (it goes higher than some of the other 25M I looked at, afaik we dont have the 32M profile rolled out here in Saratoga, CA (near San Jose))

 

Thanks

Steve

 

Re: Line Stats Analysis Results

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Mar 13, 2010 10:37:53 AM
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ACE - Expert

First I'd ask if an AM radio station on 1370 Khz is near you, that would cover the 1.371 Mhz interference.  You are right about a little higher frequency range, but nothing otherwise unusual for your distance and max sync of 43.6M.  If they do finally download the 32/5M profile, your chart will probably even look a little more robust. :smileywink:


Chris

______________________________________________________________________

Please NO SD stretch-o-vision or 480 SD HD Channels
1-800-983-2811 to avoid Mr. Voice Recognition
Your Results May Vary, In My Humble Opinion, Simply a U-verse user, nothing more

First I'd ask if an AM radio station on 1370 Khz is near you, that would cover the 1.371 Mhz interference.  You are right about a little higher frequency range, but nothing otherwise unusual for your distance and max sync of 43.6M.  If they do finally download the 32/5M profile, your chart will probably even look a little more robust. :smileywink:


Chris

______________________________________________________________________

Please NO SD stretch-o-vision or 480 SD HD Channels
1-800-983-2811 to avoid Mr. Voice Recognition
Your Results May Vary, In My Humble Opinion, Simply a U-verse user, nothing more

*The views and opinions expressed on this forum are purely my own. Any product claim, statistic, quote, or other representation about a product or service should be verified with the manufacturer, provider, or party.

Re: Line Stats Analysis Results

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Mar 13, 2010 1:58:40 PM
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Teacher

Ah, didnt think about radio stations (and never heard of 1370AM down here)..but a little googling came up with one that is pretty close and transmits right in our direction...My Spanish is poor, but we are about an 1/8" straight left of San Jose on their transmitter map

 

http://www.1370am.com/publicidad.htm\

 

ps..bummer was hoping to find a bunch of bride taps and other junk that could be fixed to make it even better :smileywink:

Ah, didnt think about radio stations (and never heard of 1370AM down here)..but a little googling came up with one that is pretty close and transmits right in our direction...My Spanish is poor, but we are about an 1/8" straight left of San Jose on their transmitter map

 

http://www.1370am.com/publicidad.htm\

 

ps..bummer was hoping to find a bunch of bride taps and other junk that could be fixed to make it even better :smileywink:

Re: Line Stats Analysis Results

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Mar 15, 2010 9:18:56 AM
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SomeJoe,

 

I must compliment you on your analysis and very useful information on this topic and several others. It is always good to see people willing to spread the knowledge they have attained. I am not sure if I will be able to get the 25/2 profile I "must" have so I can get 2 HD streams based on your Line Stats analysis and my current DSL downstream noise margin. From my 2wire gateway I see 8db downstream noise margin. I am not sure if this reading is indicative of what I can expect when the installer comes in a week. From your analysis I would fall way below the 12db minimum. I will just have to wait and see what the measurements tell us next week. I just hope for a good installer that will honestly assess my chances of getting the 2 HD streams. As a Directv subscriber with 3 HD TVs and DVR recording habits that many times require 2 HD events at a time it would be unrealistic/unpleasant to switch without the 2 streams.

 

Thanks again for the knowledge!

SomeJoe,

 

I must compliment you on your analysis and very useful information on this topic and several others. It is always good to see people willing to spread the knowledge they have attained. I am not sure if I will be able to get the 25/2 profile I "must" have so I can get 2 HD streams based on your Line Stats analysis and my current DSL downstream noise margin. From my 2wire gateway I see 8db downstream noise margin. I am not sure if this reading is indicative of what I can expect when the installer comes in a week. From your analysis I would fall way below the 12db minimum. I will just have to wait and see what the measurements tell us next week. I just hope for a good installer that will honestly assess my chances of getting the 2 HD streams. As a Directv subscriber with 3 HD TVs and DVR recording habits that many times require 2 HD events at a time it would be unrealistic/unpleasant to switch without the 2 streams.

 

Thanks again for the knowledge!

Re: Line Stats Analysis Results

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Mar 15, 2010 11:51:24 AM
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Expert

 


alex24123 wrote:

SomeJoe,

 

I must compliment you on your analysis and very useful information on this topic and several others. It is always good to see people willing to spread the knowledge they have attained. I am not sure if I will be able to get the 25/2 profile I "must" have so I can get 2 HD streams based on your Line Stats analysis and my current DSL downstream noise margin. From my 2wire gateway I see 8db downstream noise margin. I am not sure if this reading is indicative of what I can expect when the installer comes in a week. From your analysis I would fall way below the 12db minimum. I will just have to wait and see what the measurements tell us next week. I just hope for a good installer that will honestly assess my chances of getting the 2 HD streams. As a Directv subscriber with 3 HD TVs and DVR recording habits that many times require 2 HD events at a time it would be unrealistic/unpleasant to switch without the 2 streams.

 

Thanks again for the knowledge!


 

 

You cannot directly compare the noise margin from DSL vs. the noise margin from U-Verse.  First, the line you're using for DSL goes all the way back to the central office to the DSLAM, whereas the line used for U-Verse will only go to the local VRAD, so it's much shorter and less likely to pick up noise.  Second, the frequency bands and modulation used for VDSL/U-Verse is much different than ADSL, and the VDSL has more mechanisms to avoid noise on the line.

 

This is also why there is no way for AT&T to know what your likely channel capabilities (2HD, 1HD, or no installation) will be until the installation date.

 

 


alex24123 wrote:

SomeJoe,

 

I must compliment you on your analysis and very useful information on this topic and several others. It is always good to see people willing to spread the knowledge they have attained. I am not sure if I will be able to get the 25/2 profile I "must" have so I can get 2 HD streams based on your Line Stats analysis and my current DSL downstream noise margin. From my 2wire gateway I see 8db downstream noise margin. I am not sure if this reading is indicative of what I can expect when the installer comes in a week. From your analysis I would fall way below the 12db minimum. I will just have to wait and see what the measurements tell us next week. I just hope for a good installer that will honestly assess my chances of getting the 2 HD streams. As a Directv subscriber with 3 HD TVs and DVR recording habits that many times require 2 HD events at a time it would be unrealistic/unpleasant to switch without the 2 streams.

 

Thanks again for the knowledge!


 

 

You cannot directly compare the noise margin from DSL vs. the noise margin from U-Verse.  First, the line you're using for DSL goes all the way back to the central office to the DSLAM, whereas the line used for U-Verse will only go to the local VRAD, so it's much shorter and less likely to pick up noise.  Second, the frequency bands and modulation used for VDSL/U-Verse is much different than ADSL, and the VDSL has more mechanisms to avoid noise on the line.

 

This is also why there is no way for AT&T to know what your likely channel capabilities (2HD, 1HD, or no installation) will be until the installation date.

 

Re: Line Stats Analysis Results

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Mar 15, 2010 1:48:00 PM
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Thanks for the information. I thought I might be comparing things that shouldn't be compared. No more attempts to predict just wait for the install.

Thanks for the information. I thought I might be comparing things that shouldn't be compared. No more attempts to predict just wait for the install.

Re: Line Stats Analysis Results

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Mar 20, 2010 9:09:06 AM
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http://adslm.dohrenburg.net/tools/db-link.php?link=2002

 

 

          I am not sure if this will work or not but if it does can sombody check this report and tell me what they think,because i am not sure of what this is telling me. Is the interference inside or outside the house, just wanted to know  if i should call and have the lines checked, am not having any problems.

http://adslm.dohrenburg.net/tools/db-link.php?link=2002

 

 

          I am not sure if this will work or not but if it does can sombody check this report and tell me what they think,because i am not sure of what this is telling me. Is the interference inside or outside the house, just wanted to know  if i should call and have the lines checked, am not having any problems.

Re: Line Stats Analysis Results

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Mar 20, 2010 9:46:14 AM
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ACE - Expert

Would have to say it looks good for a 39-40M max sync rate.  Don't worry about those interference lines on there, it's all pretty much from your distance from the VRAD.  Nothing for you to worry about; are you having specific PQ problems? :smileysurprised:


Chris

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Please NO SD stretch-o-vision or 480 SD HD Channels
1-800-983-2811 to avoid Mr. Voice Recognition
Your Results May Vary, In My Humble Opinion, Simply a U-verse user, nothing more

Would have to say it looks good for a 39-40M max sync rate.  Don't worry about those interference lines on there, it's all pretty much from your distance from the VRAD.  Nothing for you to worry about; are you having specific PQ problems? :smileysurprised:


Chris

_______________________________________________________________________

Please NO SD stretch-o-vision or 480 SD HD Channels
1-800-983-2811 to avoid Mr. Voice Recognition
Your Results May Vary, In My Humble Opinion, Simply a U-verse user, nothing more

*The views and opinions expressed on this forum are purely my own. Any product claim, statistic, quote, or other representation about a product or service should be verified with the manufacturer, provider, or party.

Re: Line Stats Analysis Results

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Mar 20, 2010 10:09:45 AM
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mibrnsurg wrote:

Would have to say it looks good for a 39-40M max sync rate.  Don't worry about those interference lines on there, it's all pretty much from your distance from the VRAD.  Nothing for you to worry about; are you having specific PQ problems? :smileysurprised:


Chris

_______________________________________________________________________

Please NO SD stretch-o-vision or 480 SD HD Channels
1-800-983-2811 to avoid Mr. Voice Recognition
Your Results May Vary, In My Humble Opinion, Simply a U-verse user, nothing more


 

          Thank you for the reply. I am not having any PQ problems, i was just wondering about those stats because, my max sync rate went from 38644 before they jumped me to 32/5 from 25/2 to 40624 after the jump, i have had U-VERSE for better then two years, and never had any real problems, the PQ both sd and hd has always been very good.

 

 

                   Thanks a lot GOFER


mibrnsurg wrote:

Would have to say it looks good for a 39-40M max sync rate.  Don't worry about those interference lines on there, it's all pretty much from your distance from the VRAD.  Nothing for you to worry about; are you having specific PQ problems? :smileysurprised:


Chris

_______________________________________________________________________

Please NO SD stretch-o-vision or 480 SD HD Channels
1-800-983-2811 to avoid Mr. Voice Recognition
Your Results May Vary, In My Humble Opinion, Simply a U-verse user, nothing more


 

          Thank you for the reply. I am not having any PQ problems, i was just wondering about those stats because, my max sync rate went from 38644 before they jumped me to 32/5 from 25/2 to 40624 after the jump, i have had U-VERSE for better then two years, and never had any real problems, the PQ both sd and hd has always been very good.

 

 

                   Thanks a lot GOFER

Re: Line Stats Analysis Results

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Mar 20, 2010 10:17:08 AM
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ACE - Expert

That higher max sync rate is common when 32/5 is downloaded.  It drops slightly when VDSL2 downloaded, then rebounds when 32/5 downloads for most users.  In my case it went from 62M to 60M then up to 63M after 32/5 downloaded. :smileywink:


Chris

________________________________________________________________________

Please NO SD stretch-o-vision or 480 SD HD Channels
1-800-983-2811 to avoid Mr. Voice Recognition
Your Results May Vary, In My Humble Opinion, Simply a U-verse user, nothing more

That higher max sync rate is common when 32/5 is downloaded.  It drops slightly when VDSL2 downloaded, then rebounds when 32/5 downloads for most users.  In my case it went from 62M to 60M then up to 63M after 32/5 downloaded. :smileywink:


Chris

________________________________________________________________________

Please NO SD stretch-o-vision or 480 SD HD Channels
1-800-983-2811 to avoid Mr. Voice Recognition
Your Results May Vary, In My Humble Opinion, Simply a U-verse user, nothing more

*The views and opinions expressed on this forum are purely my own. Any product claim, statistic, quote, or other representation about a product or service should be verified with the manufacturer, provider, or party.

Re: Line Stats Analysis Results

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Mar 20, 2010 9:05:23 PM
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People are also seeing a 1.5-2 Mbps bump up with the new RG firmware (6.1.9.24).

 

People are also seeing a 1.5-2 Mbps bump up with the new RG firmware (6.1.9.24).

 

Re: Line Stats Analysis Results

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Mar 22, 2010 7:54:17 AM
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I had my install this morning but alas the signal was at 90% for a max of 25/2. The technician was very good and honest. The meter showed my distance as 3200 feet from the VRAD and he couldn't find any bridge taps to help reduce the length.  He explained the signal was not going to be good enough for the 25/2 so I had to cancel the service.

 

I want to commend many of those on this forum for some very useful and friendly advice. The information here really helped me in many ways to understand the good, bad and the reality of Uverse. I will keep an eye on things to see if any improvements are made for those of us that are bad/wrong end of the distance and transmission quality readings.

 

I had my install this morning but alas the signal was at 90% for a max of 25/2. The technician was very good and honest. The meter showed my distance as 3200 feet from the VRAD and he couldn't find any bridge taps to help reduce the length.  He explained the signal was not going to be good enough for the 25/2 so I had to cancel the service.

 

I want to commend many of those on this forum for some very useful and friendly advice. The information here really helped me in many ways to understand the good, bad and the reality of Uverse. I will keep an eye on things to see if any improvements are made for those of us that are bad/wrong end of the distance and transmission quality readings.

Re: Line Stats Analysis Results

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Mar 22, 2010 8:14:07 AM
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bummer

 

 

:smileysad:

bummer

 

 

:smileysad:

Re: Line Stats Analysis Results

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Apr 2, 2010 7:18:43 PM
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That bump was what prompted me to see if I could get a 32/5 profile.  I emailed tier 2 and they put the change in right away.  I ended up with a lot of errors and it dropped back down.  I think they are closed now, I will have to follow up with them later.

 

Here is my line info if anyone is interested, it is current after the retraining.

 

Regards,

 

Matt

That bump was what prompted me to see if I could get a 32/5 profile.  I emailed tier 2 and they put the change in right away.  I ended up with a lot of errors and it dropped back down.  I think they are closed now, I will have to follow up with them later.

 

Here is my line info if anyone is interested, it is current after the retraining.

 

Regards,

 

Matt

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Re: Line Stats Analysis Results

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Apr 2, 2010 7:35:05 PM
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Hate to say it but that is one of the worst charts I've seen w/a 41M max sync, on upstream 1 and downstream 2.  Some of the 19M profile charts looked better, probably why 32/5 didn't work well for you.  Would think you are on thin guage or bad wiring from the VRAD to the NID. :smileymad:


Chris

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Please NO SD stretch-o-vision or 480 SD HD Channels
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I Call It Like I See It, Your Results May Vary, In My Humble Opinion
Simply a U-verse user, nothing more

Hate to say it but that is one of the worst charts I've seen w/a 41M max sync, on upstream 1 and downstream 2.  Some of the 19M profile charts looked better, probably why 32/5 didn't work well for you.  Would think you are on thin guage or bad wiring from the VRAD to the NID. :smileymad:


Chris

_____________________________________________________________________

Please NO SD stretch-o-vision or 480 SD HD Channels
1-800-983-2811 to avoid Mr. Voice Recognition
I Call It Like I See It, Your Results May Vary, In My Humble Opinion
Simply a U-verse user, nothing more

*The views and opinions expressed on this forum are purely my own. Any product claim, statistic, quote, or other representation about a product or service should be verified with the manufacturer, provider, or party.

Re: Line Stats Analysis Results

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Apr 2, 2010 8:39:44 PM
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Thanks for the info, I suspect you are right about the wiring.  I am following up with support.  We just got the servivce and really like it, I was hoping to be able to get the increased (24M) Internet speed, but it is not a big deal right now.  We are in a hundred year old house on the edge of the middle of nowhere so I am pretty pleased we were able to get what we have now.

 

Matt

Thanks for the info, I suspect you are right about the wiring.  I am following up with support.  We just got the servivce and really like it, I was hoping to be able to get the increased (24M) Internet speed, but it is not a big deal right now.  We are in a hundred year old house on the edge of the middle of nowhere so I am pretty pleased we were able to get what we have now.

 

Matt

Re: Line Stats Analysis Results

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Apr 3, 2010 8:56:21 AM
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Tier two wrote me back this morning and told me to reset the RG and it has been on 32/5 since then.  Been streaming 3 HD channels + 1 SD and doing some downloads and speed tests on the Internet for the past hour or two and everything looks good so far.(Good Internet Speed, No glitches on the TVs, etc).

 

http://adslm.dohrenburg.net/tools/db-link.php?link=2169

Tier two wrote me back this morning and told me to reset the RG and it has been on 32/5 since then.  Been streaming 3 HD channels + 1 SD and doing some downloads and speed tests on the Internet for the past hour or two and everything looks good so far.(Good Internet Speed, No glitches on the TVs, etc).

 

http://adslm.dohrenburg.net/tools/db-link.php?link=2169

Re: Line Stats Analysis Results

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Apr 3, 2010 9:14:57 AM
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ACE - Expert

Don't know if you compared both charts, the latest is much better, so they did something.  Listed your max sync at 41M, don't know where that came from as your max synce is 36M.  The fact 32/5 is now stable is interesting.  Good luck :smileywink:


Chris

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Please NO SD stretch-o-vision or 480 SD HD Channels
1-800-983-2811 to avoid Mr. Voice Recognition
I Call It Like I See It, Your Results May Vary, In My Humble Opinion
Simply a U-verse user, nothing more

Don't know if you compared both charts, the latest is much better, so they did something.  Listed your max sync at 41M, don't know where that came from as your max synce is 36M.  The fact 32/5 is now stable is interesting.  Good luck :smileywink:


Chris

_____________________________________________________________________

Please NO SD stretch-o-vision or 480 SD HD Channels
1-800-983-2811 to avoid Mr. Voice Recognition
I Call It Like I See It, Your Results May Vary, In My Humble Opinion
Simply a U-verse user, nothing more

*The views and opinions expressed on this forum are purely my own. Any product claim, statistic, quote, or other representation about a product or service should be verified with the manufacturer, provider, or party.

Re: Line Stats Analysis Results

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Apr 8, 2010 4:03:31 PM
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what are people's thoughts on the "corrected blocks"?  trouble?

 

Reset 24-hr int. 15-min int. Last Event

SinceCurrentCurrentTime Since
 
DSL
Link Retrains10010Days21:02:18
DSL Training Errors0000:00:00
Training Timeouts0000:00:00
Loss of Framing Failures0000:00:00
Loss of Signal Failures0000:00:00
Loss of Power Failures0000:00:00
Loss of Margin Failures0000:00:00
**bleep**. Seconds w/Errors1061102:55:52
**bleep**. Sec. w/Severe Errors1009Days1:43:22
Corrected Blocks5619916325400:25:35
Uncorrectable Blocks3072102:55:52
DSL Unavailable Seconds650010Days21:01:48

what are people's thoughts on the "corrected blocks"?  trouble?

 

Reset 24-hr int. 15-min int. Last Event

SinceCurrentCurrentTime Since
 
DSL
Link Retrains10010Days21:02:18
DSL Training Errors0000:00:00
Training Timeouts0000:00:00
Loss of Framing Failures0000:00:00
Loss of Signal Failures0000:00:00
Loss of Power Failures0000:00:00
Loss of Margin Failures0000:00:00
**bleep**. Seconds w/Errors1061102:55:52
**bleep**. Sec. w/Severe Errors1009Days1:43:22
Corrected Blocks5619916325400:25:35
Uncorrectable Blocks3072102:55:52
DSL Unavailable Seconds650010Days21:01:48

Re: Line Stats Analysis Results

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Apr 9, 2010 8:44:29 AM
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ACE - Expert

This post from SomeJoe will apply as long as your noise margin is inline w/the other connection specs:

http://utalk.att.com/t5/Equipment/Data-Stats-Collection-Thread/m-p/214110#M40133


If the noise margin is out of whack, it could be line problems instead.  Good luck :smileywink:


Chris

_____________________________________________________________________

Please NO SD stretch-o-vision or 480 SD HD Channels
1-800-983-2811 to avoid Mr. Voice Recognition
I Call It Like I See It, Your Results May Vary, In My Humble Opinion
Simply a U-verse user, nothing more

This post from SomeJoe will apply as long as your noise margin is inline w/the other connection specs:

http://utalk.att.com/t5/Equipment/Data-Stats-Collection-Thread/m-p/214110#M40133


If the noise margin is out of whack, it could be line problems instead.  Good luck :smileywink:


Chris

_____________________________________________________________________

Please NO SD stretch-o-vision or 480 SD HD Channels
1-800-983-2811 to avoid Mr. Voice Recognition
I Call It Like I See It, Your Results May Vary, In My Humble Opinion
Simply a U-verse user, nothing more

*The views and opinions expressed on this forum are purely my own. Any product claim, statistic, quote, or other representation about a product or service should be verified with the manufacturer, provider, or party.

Re: Line Stats Analysis Results

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Apr 25, 2010 8:05:17 PM
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Hi,

 

I would like to know, how does this look? http://adslm.dohrenburg.net/tools/db-link.php?link=2413

 

Note that this is after a recent very heavy set of thunderstorms, so lots and lots of lightning. Other than that my corrected blocks per 24-hour period is a few hundred, uncorrected at zero, unless lightning is around.

 

Also, line man said my actual line distance mapped is about 750 feet, but his tool estimates 900 feet. He also stated I am on 26-gauge wire (I think?) either way he said the F2 pair is probably 50 years old, so it's probably 24-gauge if not 26. Maybe the pole drop is 26-gauge? Also claims no bridge taps, sounds about right?

Hi,

 

I would like to know, how does this look? http://adslm.dohrenburg.net/tools/db-link.php?link=2413

 

Note that this is after a recent very heavy set of thunderstorms, so lots and lots of lightning. Other than that my corrected blocks per 24-hour period is a few hundred, uncorrected at zero, unless lightning is around.

 

Also, line man said my actual line distance mapped is about 750 feet, but his tool estimates 900 feet. He also stated I am on 26-gauge wire (I think?) either way he said the F2 pair is probably 50 years old, so it's probably 24-gauge if not 26. Maybe the pole drop is 26-gauge? Also claims no bridge taps, sounds about right?

Re: Line Stats Analysis Results

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Apr 25, 2010 8:36:38 PM
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ACE - Expert

The chart looks real good and would say the 900' estimate is closest for your distance from the VRAD as the lines almost never go too straight directly there to the crossbox.  You line right up on the blue line w/53m max sync and 20 db noise margin on SomeJoe's chart if you click on the solution on page 1. :smileywink:


Chris

_____________________________________________________________________

Please NO SD stretch-o-vision or 480 SD HD Channels
1-800-983-2811 to avoid Mr. Voice Recognition
I Call It Like I See It, Your Results May Vary, In My Humble Opinion
Simply a U-verse user, nothing more

The chart looks real good and would say the 900' estimate is closest for your distance from the VRAD as the lines almost never go too straight directly there to the crossbox.  You line right up on the blue line w/53m max sync and 20 db noise margin on SomeJoe's chart if you click on the solution on page 1. :smileywink:


Chris

_____________________________________________________________________

Please NO SD stretch-o-vision or 480 SD HD Channels
1-800-983-2811 to avoid Mr. Voice Recognition
I Call It Like I See It, Your Results May Vary, In My Humble Opinion
Simply a U-verse user, nothing more

*The views and opinions expressed on this forum are purely my own. Any product claim, statistic, quote, or other representation about a product or service should be verified with the manufacturer, provider, or party.

Re: Line Stats Analysis Results

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