Ask a question
Search in U-verse Forums

U-verse Forums

Reply
Posted Jul 12, 2012
6:39:18 PM
what's up with 1080i setting but no 1080p?
So I ordered HD upgrade. On the DVR settings I figured I'd see what settings there are, so I go the screen settings and the highest one is 1080i...

What's up with that? Am I really getting interlaced frames? Can this DVR not output 1080p?

What am I missing here?

I have to believe you guys are getting 1080p...
So I ordered HD upgrade. On the DVR settings I figured I'd see what settings there are, so I go the screen settings and the highest one is 1080i...

What's up with that? Am I really getting interlaced frames? Can this DVR not output 1080p?

What am I missing here?

I have to believe you guys are getting 1080p...
Accepted Solution

what's up with 1080i setting but no 1080p?

20,068 views
46 replies
(0) Me too
(0) Me too
Reply
View all replies
(46)
0
(0)
  • Rate this reply
View profile
Sep 20, 2013 7:43:12 PM
0
(0)
ACE - Expert
Edited by JefferMC on Sep 20, 2013 at 7:46:47 PM

morphinapg wrote:

The reason for 1080p output is not to receive 1080p channels, it's so that BOTH 1080i and 720p content get scaled properly. If you have 1080i output, then you're losing resolution on 720p channels, and if you use 720p output, then you lose resolution on 1080i channels. With 1080p output, you don't ever lose resolution. 


Perhaps you should re-read the thread above?

 

The TV has exactly ONE native resolution.  It is either 720 or 1080 vertical pixels.  If it gets the other resolution, the TV will scale it to the TV's native resolution.

 

So... if the TV is 1080i and the channel comes in as 1080i, then no scaling occurs.  If the TV is 1080 and the channel is 720p, even if this is the "native" format for the content, it will STILL get scaled by the TV.

 

1080p and 1080i have the same vertical resolution, it's just that on 1080i only frames are "sort of" broken up into fields containing half the lines in each field.

 

The only thing having the STB lock the resolution at a certain number of pixels does is move the scaling from the TV to the STB.  The STB, especially a newer one, has fairly good scaling ability.

 

 


morphinapg wrote:

The reason for 1080p output is not to receive 1080p channels, it's so that BOTH 1080i and 720p content get scaled properly. If you have 1080i output, then you're losing resolution on 720p channels, and if you use 720p output, then you lose resolution on 1080i channels. With 1080p output, you don't ever lose resolution. 


Perhaps you should re-read the thread above?

 

The TV has exactly ONE native resolution.  It is either 720 or 1080 vertical pixels.  If it gets the other resolution, the TV will scale it to the TV's native resolution.

 

So... if the TV is 1080i and the channel comes in as 1080i, then no scaling occurs.  If the TV is 1080 and the channel is 720p, even if this is the "native" format for the content, it will STILL get scaled by the TV.

 

1080p and 1080i have the same vertical resolution, it's just that on 1080i only frames are "sort of" broken up into fields containing half the lines in each field.

 

The only thing having the STB lock the resolution at a certain number of pixels does is move the scaling from the TV to the STB.  The STB, especially a newer one, has fairly good scaling ability.

 

 

*The views and opinions expressed on this forum are purely my own. Any product claim, statistic, quote, or other representation about a product or service should be verified with the manufacturer, provider, or party.

Re: what's up with 1080i setting but no 1080p?

[ Edited ]
31 of 47 (3,912 Views)
0
(0)
  • Rate this reply
View profile
Sep 20, 2013 7:53:43 PM
0
(0)
Tutor
Edited by morphinapg on Sep 20, 2013 at 8:04:03 PM

JefferMC wrote:

morphinapg wrote:

The reason for 1080p output is not to receive 1080p channels, it's so that BOTH 1080i and 720p content get scaled properly. If you have 1080i output, then you're losing resolution on 720p channels, and if you use 720p output, then you lose resolution on 1080i channels. With 1080p output, you don't ever lose resolution. 


Perhaps you should re-read the thread above?

 

The TV has exactly ONE native resolution.  It is either 720 or 1080 vertical pixels.  If it gets the other resolution, the TV will scale it to the TV's native resolution.

 

So... if the TV is 1080i and the channel comes in as 1080i, then no scaling occurs.  If the TV is 1080 and the channel is 720p, even if this is the "native" format for the content, it will STILL get scaled by the TV.

 

1080p and 1080i have the same vertical resolution, it's just that on 1080i only frames are "sort of" broken up into fields containing half the lines in each field.

 

The only thing having the STB lock the resolution at a certain number of pixels does is move the scaling from the TV to the STB.  The STB, especially a newer one, has fairly good scaling ability.

 

 


There's more to it than vertical pixels, the interlaced/progressive makes a difference.

 

If you have a 1080p TV, then a 720p channel will be first scaled to 1080i on the Uverse box, then to 1080p on the TV. When a 720p channel gets scaled to 1080i, it loses resolution. However, when a 720p channel gets scaled to 1080p, it doesn't lose resolution. That's because of the nature of interlacing.

 

A 720p signal scaled to 1080i is essentially 1280x540, while a 720p signal scaled to 1080p retains its full 1280x720 resolution. If the uverse box had a 1080p signal, you wouldn't have to worry about scaling issues, as both 720p and 1080i scale nicely to 1080p. 

 

Although since the Uverse deinterlacer (at least the one on my box) isn't very good, a native setting would probably be better.


JefferMC wrote:

morphinapg wrote:

The reason for 1080p output is not to receive 1080p channels, it's so that BOTH 1080i and 720p content get scaled properly. If you have 1080i output, then you're losing resolution on 720p channels, and if you use 720p output, then you lose resolution on 1080i channels. With 1080p output, you don't ever lose resolution. 


Perhaps you should re-read the thread above?

 

The TV has exactly ONE native resolution.  It is either 720 or 1080 vertical pixels.  If it gets the other resolution, the TV will scale it to the TV's native resolution.

 

So... if the TV is 1080i and the channel comes in as 1080i, then no scaling occurs.  If the TV is 1080 and the channel is 720p, even if this is the "native" format for the content, it will STILL get scaled by the TV.

 

1080p and 1080i have the same vertical resolution, it's just that on 1080i only frames are "sort of" broken up into fields containing half the lines in each field.

 

The only thing having the STB lock the resolution at a certain number of pixels does is move the scaling from the TV to the STB.  The STB, especially a newer one, has fairly good scaling ability.

 

 


There's more to it than vertical pixels, the interlaced/progressive makes a difference.

 

If you have a 1080p TV, then a 720p channel will be first scaled to 1080i on the Uverse box, then to 1080p on the TV. When a 720p channel gets scaled to 1080i, it loses resolution. However, when a 720p channel gets scaled to 1080p, it doesn't lose resolution. That's because of the nature of interlacing.

 

A 720p signal scaled to 1080i is essentially 1280x540, while a 720p signal scaled to 1080p retains its full 1280x720 resolution. If the uverse box had a 1080p signal, you wouldn't have to worry about scaling issues, as both 720p and 1080i scale nicely to 1080p. 

 

Although since the Uverse deinterlacer (at least the one on my box) isn't very good, a native setting would probably be better.

Re: what's up with 1080i setting but no 1080p?

[ Edited ]
32 of 47 (3,899 Views)
0
(0)
  • Rate this reply
View profile
Sep 21, 2013 5:38:36 AM
0
(0)
ACE - Expert

morphinapg wrote:

...

A 720p signal scaled to 1080i is essentially 1280x540, while a 720p signal scaled to 1080p retains its full 1280x720 resolution. . 

 ...


Scaling from 720p to 1080i means that each 720p frame will be scaled into some number of 1080i fields, each having half of the vertical pixels (540) but it's not simply 540 pixels per 720p frame. An entire 1080 picture is being produced, but is divided into fields having half the information in each one (but with knowledge of the intervening pixels in the other frame and created to work together to create a full 1080 pixel tall picture).  I will allow that a clean frame to frame conversion of 720p to 1080p would carry more original information in the data streams, but I'm not convinced that information is all that important.

 

Do you have a source to cite showing that it is?

 


morphinapg wrote:

...

A 720p signal scaled to 1080i is essentially 1280x540, while a 720p signal scaled to 1080p retains its full 1280x720 resolution. . 

 ...


Scaling from 720p to 1080i means that each 720p frame will be scaled into some number of 1080i fields, each having half of the vertical pixels (540) but it's not simply 540 pixels per 720p frame. An entire 1080 picture is being produced, but is divided into fields having half the information in each one (but with knowledge of the intervening pixels in the other frame and created to work together to create a full 1080 pixel tall picture).  I will allow that a clean frame to frame conversion of 720p to 1080p would carry more original information in the data streams, but I'm not convinced that information is all that important.

 

Do you have a source to cite showing that it is?

 

*The views and opinions expressed on this forum are purely my own. Any product claim, statistic, quote, or other representation about a product or service should be verified with the manufacturer, provider, or party.

Re: what's up with 1080i setting but no 1080p?

33 of 47 (3,855 Views)
0
(0)
  • Rate this reply
View profile
Sep 21, 2013 12:59:35 PM
0
(0)
Tutor

JefferMC wrote:

morphinapg wrote:

...

A 720p signal scaled to 1080i is essentially 1280x540, while a 720p signal scaled to 1080p retains its full 1280x720 resolution. . 

 ...


Scaling from 720p to 1080i means that each 720p frame will be scaled into some number of 1080i fields, each having half of the vertical pixels (540) but it's not simply 540 pixels per 720p frame. An entire 1080 picture is being produced, but is divided into fields having half the information in each one (but with knowledge of the intervening pixels in the other frame and created to work together to create a full 1080 pixel tall picture).  I will allow that a clean frame to frame conversion of 720p to 1080p would carry more original information in the data streams, but I'm not convinced that information is all that important.

 

Do you have a source to cite showing that it is?

 


It's between 360 and 540 pixels, depending on the quality of the scaler.

 

The way it works is this: The 1280x720 image is scaled to 1920x1080, and then every other vertical field is discarded. If the upscaler is very good, this will be close to 540 pixels of vertical resolution remaining, but if the scaler is bad, it will be smaller, closer to 360 pixels. I was assuming a good scaler, though I'm not sure how good U-verse's scaler is.

 

As for whether the information is important, it depends on a source. You may be correct for 24fps content, such as scripted primetime TV, as there are duplicated frames that contain that information, but then again, if the TV has a bad deinterlacer, then that information still isn't displayed as well as it would on 1080p output. However, it's absolutely vital on 60fps content, such as any live TV shows, or nonscripted television, such as sports, news, game shows, reality tv, etc. As there is a lot of lost information in those cases.

 

 


JefferMC wrote:

morphinapg wrote:

...

A 720p signal scaled to 1080i is essentially 1280x540, while a 720p signal scaled to 1080p retains its full 1280x720 resolution. . 

 ...


Scaling from 720p to 1080i means that each 720p frame will be scaled into some number of 1080i fields, each having half of the vertical pixels (540) but it's not simply 540 pixels per 720p frame. An entire 1080 picture is being produced, but is divided into fields having half the information in each one (but with knowledge of the intervening pixels in the other frame and created to work together to create a full 1080 pixel tall picture).  I will allow that a clean frame to frame conversion of 720p to 1080p would carry more original information in the data streams, but I'm not convinced that information is all that important.

 

Do you have a source to cite showing that it is?

 


It's between 360 and 540 pixels, depending on the quality of the scaler.

 

The way it works is this: The 1280x720 image is scaled to 1920x1080, and then every other vertical field is discarded. If the upscaler is very good, this will be close to 540 pixels of vertical resolution remaining, but if the scaler is bad, it will be smaller, closer to 360 pixels. I was assuming a good scaler, though I'm not sure how good U-verse's scaler is.

 

As for whether the information is important, it depends on a source. You may be correct for 24fps content, such as scripted primetime TV, as there are duplicated frames that contain that information, but then again, if the TV has a bad deinterlacer, then that information still isn't displayed as well as it would on 1080p output. However, it's absolutely vital on 60fps content, such as any live TV shows, or nonscripted television, such as sports, news, game shows, reality tv, etc. As there is a lot of lost information in those cases.

 

 

Re: what's up with 1080i setting but no 1080p?

34 of 47 (3,824 Views)
0
(0)
  • Rate this reply
View profile
Sep 21, 2013 1:59:58 PM
0
(0)
ACE - Expert

morphinapg wrote:

It's between 360 and 540 pixels, depending on the quality of the scaler.

 

The way it works is this: The 1280x720 image is scaled to 1920x1080, and then every other vertical field is discarded. If the upscaler is very good, this will be close to 540 pixels of vertical resolution remaining, but if the scaler is bad, it will be smaller, closer to 360 pixels. I was assuming a good scaler, though I'm not sure how good U-verse's scaler is.

 

As for whether the information is important, it depends on a source. You may be correct for 24fps content, such as scripted primetime TV, as there are duplicated frames that contain that information, but then again, if the TV has a bad deinterlacer, then that information still isn't displayed as well as it would on 1080p output. However, it's absolutely vital on 60fps content, such as any live TV shows, or nonscripted television, such as sports, news, game shows, reality tv, etc. As there is a lot of lost information in those cases.

 

 


Every other field?  I think you mean every other vertical line on alternate 1080i fields created from the 720p stream.


There are two different chipsets in use, depending on the age of the STB.  The older one uses a Sigma Designs chipset which is pretty good for its day.  I don't remember the manufacturer of the newer one.

 

It will make very little difference if there is no moving content.  Of course, if nothing's moving, why is it on TV?

 


morphinapg wrote:

It's between 360 and 540 pixels, depending on the quality of the scaler.

 

The way it works is this: The 1280x720 image is scaled to 1920x1080, and then every other vertical field is discarded. If the upscaler is very good, this will be close to 540 pixels of vertical resolution remaining, but if the scaler is bad, it will be smaller, closer to 360 pixels. I was assuming a good scaler, though I'm not sure how good U-verse's scaler is.

 

As for whether the information is important, it depends on a source. You may be correct for 24fps content, such as scripted primetime TV, as there are duplicated frames that contain that information, but then again, if the TV has a bad deinterlacer, then that information still isn't displayed as well as it would on 1080p output. However, it's absolutely vital on 60fps content, such as any live TV shows, or nonscripted television, such as sports, news, game shows, reality tv, etc. As there is a lot of lost information in those cases.

 

 


Every other field?  I think you mean every other vertical line on alternate 1080i fields created from the 720p stream.


There are two different chipsets in use, depending on the age of the STB.  The older one uses a Sigma Designs chipset which is pretty good for its day.  I don't remember the manufacturer of the newer one.

 

It will make very little difference if there is no moving content.  Of course, if nothing's moving, why is it on TV?

 

*The views and opinions expressed on this forum are purely my own. Any product claim, statistic, quote, or other representation about a product or service should be verified with the manufacturer, provider, or party.

Re: what's up with 1080i setting but no 1080p?

35 of 47 (3,814 Views)
0
(0)
  • Rate this reply
View profile
Sep 21, 2013 3:38:11 PM
0
(0)
Expert
Edited by SomeJoe7777 on Sep 21, 2013 at 3:39:49 PM

morphinapg,

 

Jeffer is essentially correct here.

 

While its true that scaling 720p -> 1080i results in the physical pixel information for each field to be only 540 lines high, remember that the following field's 540 lines are the other lines of the post-scaling 1920x1080 frame.  The brain combines the fine detail from both fields, giving the illusion of full spatial resolution.  Indeed, this was the entire point of interlaced video since it was invented in the 1940s -- full spatial resolution at half the required bandwidth.

 

The TV will then deinterlace at double-rate to produce 1080p/60 output for the display.  If the TV's motion-adaptive deinterlacer is smart, it will use the 540 lines from several adjacent fields to produce it's 1080p/60 frames, thus reversing a lot of the loss in the STB's 720p -> 1080i conversion.

 

In any event, if this conversion process is objectionable to you, just set the STB to 720p output when watching a native-720p feed.  That way the TV can scale this to 1080p/60 without a re-interlacing then deinterlacing process.

 

 

morphinapg,

 

Jeffer is essentially correct here.

 

While its true that scaling 720p -> 1080i results in the physical pixel information for each field to be only 540 lines high, remember that the following field's 540 lines are the other lines of the post-scaling 1920x1080 frame.  The brain combines the fine detail from both fields, giving the illusion of full spatial resolution.  Indeed, this was the entire point of interlaced video since it was invented in the 1940s -- full spatial resolution at half the required bandwidth.

 

The TV will then deinterlace at double-rate to produce 1080p/60 output for the display.  If the TV's motion-adaptive deinterlacer is smart, it will use the 540 lines from several adjacent fields to produce it's 1080p/60 frames, thus reversing a lot of the loss in the STB's 720p -> 1080i conversion.

 

In any event, if this conversion process is objectionable to you, just set the STB to 720p output when watching a native-720p feed.  That way the TV can scale this to 1080p/60 without a re-interlacing then deinterlacing process.

 

 

Re: what's up with 1080i setting but no 1080p?

[ Edited ]
36 of 47 (3,802 Views)
0
(0)
  • Rate this reply
View profile
Sep 21, 2013 3:51:28 PM
0
(0)
Tutor
Edited by morphinapg on Sep 21, 2013 at 3:52:49 PM

JefferMC wrote:

Every other field?  I think you mean every other vertical line on alternate 1080i fields created from the 720p stream.

 


Sorry, yes, I did mean every other vertical line of resolution. 720p60 gets upscaled to 1080p60, but then every other vertical line is discarded for each frame (even lines on even frames, and odd lines on odd frames, etc) to convert it into 1080i60. 

 


SomeJoe7777 wrote:

morphinapg,

 

Jeffer is essentially correct here.

 

While its true that scaling 720p -> 1080i results in the physical pixel information for each field to be only 540 lines high, remember that the following field's 540 lines are the other lines of the post-scaling 1920x1080 frame.  The brain combines the fine detail from both fields, giving the illusion of full spatial resolution.  Indeed, this was the entire point of interlaced video since it was invented in the 1940s -- full spatial resolution at half the required bandwidth.

 

The TV will then deinterlace at double-rate to produce 1080p/60 output for the display.  If the TV's motion-adaptive deinterlacer is smart, it will use the 540 lines from several adjacent fields to produce it's 1080p/60 frames, thus reversing a lot of the loss in the STB's 720p -> 1080i conversion.

 

In any event, if this conversion process is objectionable to you, just set the STB to 720p output when watching a native-720p feed.  That way the TV can scale this to 1080p/60 without a re-interlacing then deinterlacing process.

 

 


Sorry, but you do not have the full vertical resolution. Yes, you have odd lines on odd frames and even lines on even frames, and your eyes combine these, but you will only get full vertical resolution if the image is not moving. If the image is moving, at best you get 540 lines of vertical resolution, and at worst you get 360, depending on the scaler. Setting the box to 720p is not a good idea either, because you will have the same problem with 1080i channels, getting at most 720p resolution, and at worst, around 540 lines of vertical resolution. Having a 1080p output setting resolves both of these problems for 1080p TVs (which is most), but a native output setting could potentially be even better if your TV/receiver performs better scaling or deinterlacing than the U-verse box.


JefferMC wrote:

Every other field?  I think you mean every other vertical line on alternate 1080i fields created from the 720p stream.

 


Sorry, yes, I did mean every other vertical line of resolution. 720p60 gets upscaled to 1080p60, but then every other vertical line is discarded for each frame (even lines on even frames, and odd lines on odd frames, etc) to convert it into 1080i60. 

 


SomeJoe7777 wrote:

morphinapg,

 

Jeffer is essentially correct here.

 

While its true that scaling 720p -> 1080i results in the physical pixel information for each field to be only 540 lines high, remember that the following field's 540 lines are the other lines of the post-scaling 1920x1080 frame.  The brain combines the fine detail from both fields, giving the illusion of full spatial resolution.  Indeed, this was the entire point of interlaced video since it was invented in the 1940s -- full spatial resolution at half the required bandwidth.

 

The TV will then deinterlace at double-rate to produce 1080p/60 output for the display.  If the TV's motion-adaptive deinterlacer is smart, it will use the 540 lines from several adjacent fields to produce it's 1080p/60 frames, thus reversing a lot of the loss in the STB's 720p -> 1080i conversion.

 

In any event, if this conversion process is objectionable to you, just set the STB to 720p output when watching a native-720p feed.  That way the TV can scale this to 1080p/60 without a re-interlacing then deinterlacing process.

 

 


Sorry, but you do not have the full vertical resolution. Yes, you have odd lines on odd frames and even lines on even frames, and your eyes combine these, but you will only get full vertical resolution if the image is not moving. If the image is moving, at best you get 540 lines of vertical resolution, and at worst you get 360, depending on the scaler. Setting the box to 720p is not a good idea either, because you will have the same problem with 1080i channels, getting at most 720p resolution, and at worst, around 540 lines of vertical resolution. Having a 1080p output setting resolves both of these problems for 1080p TVs (which is most), but a native output setting could potentially be even better if your TV/receiver performs better scaling or deinterlacing than the U-verse box.

Re: what's up with 1080i setting but no 1080p?

[ Edited ]
37 of 47 (3,792 Views)
0
(0)
  • Rate this reply
View profile
Sep 21, 2013 7:44:03 PM
0
(0)
Expert

morphinapg wrote:

 

Sorry, but you do not have the full vertical resolution. Yes, you have odd lines on odd frames and even lines on even frames, and your eyes combine these, but you will only get full vertical resolution if the image is not moving. If the image is moving, at best you get 540 lines of vertical resolution, and at worst you get 360, depending on the scaler. Setting the box to 720p is not a good idea either, because you will have the same problem with 1080i channels, getting at most 720p resolution, and at worst, around 540 lines of vertical resolution. Having a 1080p output setting resolves both of these problems for 1080p TVs (which is most), but a native output setting could potentially be even better if your TV/receiver performs better scaling or deinterlacing than the U-verse box.


 

No, that is not correct, because the scaling is done prior to splitting the image into fields.  The deinterlacing algorithms do not come into play in the STB here.

 

Frame #0: 720p/60 -> resize -> 1080p/60 inside the STB, then the odd lines are taken to make field 0: 1080i/60 -> sent to TV

 

Frame #1: 720p/60 -> resize -> 1080p/60 inside the STB, then the even lines are taken to make field 1: 1080i/60 -> sent to TV

 

... continues

 

This process is independent of the deinterlacer, and therefore no motion compensation algorithms are necessary at all.  Thus, there is no decision being made to bob or weave different parts of the image.  The scaling is a pure still image resize algorithm, like Lanczos4 or Spline.

 

 

As far as the output setting, 720p will bypass any re-interlace/deinterlace combination like I outlined above for 720p native material, and the 1080i setting does the same thing for 1080i native material.  Yes, obviously a "native" output resolution setting would be ideal, as was already discussed earlier in this thread.

 


morphinapg wrote:

 

Sorry, but you do not have the full vertical resolution. Yes, you have odd lines on odd frames and even lines on even frames, and your eyes combine these, but you will only get full vertical resolution if the image is not moving. If the image is moving, at best you get 540 lines of vertical resolution, and at worst you get 360, depending on the scaler. Setting the box to 720p is not a good idea either, because you will have the same problem with 1080i channels, getting at most 720p resolution, and at worst, around 540 lines of vertical resolution. Having a 1080p output setting resolves both of these problems for 1080p TVs (which is most), but a native output setting could potentially be even better if your TV/receiver performs better scaling or deinterlacing than the U-verse box.


 

No, that is not correct, because the scaling is done prior to splitting the image into fields.  The deinterlacing algorithms do not come into play in the STB here.

 

Frame #0: 720p/60 -> resize -> 1080p/60 inside the STB, then the odd lines are taken to make field 0: 1080i/60 -> sent to TV

 

Frame #1: 720p/60 -> resize -> 1080p/60 inside the STB, then the even lines are taken to make field 1: 1080i/60 -> sent to TV

 

... continues

 

This process is independent of the deinterlacer, and therefore no motion compensation algorithms are necessary at all.  Thus, there is no decision being made to bob or weave different parts of the image.  The scaling is a pure still image resize algorithm, like Lanczos4 or Spline.

 

 

As far as the output setting, 720p will bypass any re-interlace/deinterlace combination like I outlined above for 720p native material, and the 1080i setting does the same thing for 1080i native material.  Yes, obviously a "native" output resolution setting would be ideal, as was already discussed earlier in this thread.

 

Re: what's up with 1080i setting but no 1080p?

38 of 47 (3,764 Views)
0
(0)
  • Rate this reply
View profile
Sep 21, 2013 8:04:00 PM
0
(0)
Tutor
Edited by morphinapg on Sep 21, 2013 at 8:09:16 PM

SomeJoe7777 wrote:

morphinapg wrote:

 

Sorry, but you do not have the full vertical resolution. Yes, you have odd lines on odd frames and even lines on even frames, and your eyes combine these, but you will only get full vertical resolution if the image is not moving. If the image is moving, at best you get 540 lines of vertical resolution, and at worst you get 360, depending on the scaler. Setting the box to 720p is not a good idea either, because you will have the same problem with 1080i channels, getting at most 720p resolution, and at worst, around 540 lines of vertical resolution. Having a 1080p output setting resolves both of these problems for 1080p TVs (which is most), but a native output setting could potentially be even better if your TV/receiver performs better scaling or deinterlacing than the U-verse box.


 

No, that is not correct, because the scaling is done prior to splitting the image into fields.  The deinterlacing algorithms do not come into play in the STB here.

 

Frame #0: 720p/60 -> resize -> 1080p/60 inside the STB, then the odd lines are taken to make field 0: 1080i/60 -> sent to TV

 

Frame #1: 720p/60 -> resize -> 1080p/60 inside the STB, then the even lines are taken to make field 1: 1080i/60 -> sent to TV

 

... continues

 

This process is independent of the deinterlacer, and therefore no motion compensation algorithms are necessary at all.  Thus, there is no decision being made to bob or weave different parts of the image.  The scaling is a pure still image resize algorithm, like Lanczos4 or Spline.

 

 

As far as the output setting, 720p will bypass any re-interlace/deinterlace combination like I outlined above for 720p native material, and the 1080i setting does the same thing for 1080i native material.  Yes, obviously a "native" output resolution setting would be ideal, as was already discussed earlier in this thread.

 


*sigh*

 

You're misinterpereting what I was saying. You are absolutely correct about the scaling process from 720p to 1080i.

 

However, I went on to also discuss 1080p output. So here are the multiple scenarios:

 

Scenario #1: 720p output selected

  • 720p signal is sent unaltered
  • 1080i signal is deinterlaced, and then scaled to 720p. 

Deinterlacer quality is important here, because a bad deinterlacer gives you roughly 1280x540 resolution on 1080i content, and a good one will at least give you the full 1280x720. This is a bad option, because you lose resolution on all 1080i channels.

 


Scenario #2: 1080i output selected

  • 720p signal is first scaled to 1080p, and then half of the vertical lines are discarded to produce a 1080i image (which half depends on which frame). Static images will retain their 720p quality, but moving images will have resolution of anywhere between 1280x360 and 1280x540. 
  • 1080i signal is sent unaltered

Scaler quality is important here, because it determines the motion resolution of 720p signals. This is also a bad option, because you lose motion resolution on 720p channels, but it is a better option, as you at least retain resolution on static images.

 

Scenario #3: 1080p output selected (not currently possible)

  • 720p signal is scaled to 1080p
  • 1080i signal is deinterlaced to 1080p

All resolution is retained, but both scaler and deinterlacer quality are important here, because some TVs or receivers may be able to deinterlace or scale the source signals better than the U-verse box. Many TVs today have automatic film detection from 1080i sources, so they can recombine fields into progressive frames from 24fps content. From my experience, the deinterlacer on the U-verse is very low quality and simply does a basic interpolation, causing flicker that could be reduced by a deinterlacer capable of motion compensation, as is found on most good TVs and receivers today.


Scenario #4: Native output selected (not currently possible)

  • 720p signal is sent unaltered
  • 1080i signal is sent unaltered 

The U-verse box's scaler and deinterlacer are no longer important, as the TV or receiver will now be doing the scaling and deinterlacing. The only drawback being the delay between switching resolution after changing channels.


SomeJoe7777 wrote:

morphinapg wrote:

 

Sorry, but you do not have the full vertical resolution. Yes, you have odd lines on odd frames and even lines on even frames, and your eyes combine these, but you will only get full vertical resolution if the image is not moving. If the image is moving, at best you get 540 lines of vertical resolution, and at worst you get 360, depending on the scaler. Setting the box to 720p is not a good idea either, because you will have the same problem with 1080i channels, getting at most 720p resolution, and at worst, around 540 lines of vertical resolution. Having a 1080p output setting resolves both of these problems for 1080p TVs (which is most), but a native output setting could potentially be even better if your TV/receiver performs better scaling or deinterlacing than the U-verse box.


 

No, that is not correct, because the scaling is done prior to splitting the image into fields.  The deinterlacing algorithms do not come into play in the STB here.

 

Frame #0: 720p/60 -> resize -> 1080p/60 inside the STB, then the odd lines are taken to make field 0: 1080i/60 -> sent to TV

 

Frame #1: 720p/60 -> resize -> 1080p/60 inside the STB, then the even lines are taken to make field 1: 1080i/60 -> sent to TV

 

... continues

 

This process is independent of the deinterlacer, and therefore no motion compensation algorithms are necessary at all.  Thus, there is no decision being made to bob or weave different parts of the image.  The scaling is a pure still image resize algorithm, like Lanczos4 or Spline.

 

 

As far as the output setting, 720p will bypass any re-interlace/deinterlace combination like I outlined above for 720p native material, and the 1080i setting does the same thing for 1080i native material.  Yes, obviously a "native" output resolution setting would be ideal, as was already discussed earlier in this thread.

 


*sigh*

 

You're misinterpereting what I was saying. You are absolutely correct about the scaling process from 720p to 1080i.

 

However, I went on to also discuss 1080p output. So here are the multiple scenarios:

 

Scenario #1: 720p output selected

  • 720p signal is sent unaltered
  • 1080i signal is deinterlaced, and then scaled to 720p. 

Deinterlacer quality is important here, because a bad deinterlacer gives you roughly 1280x540 resolution on 1080i content, and a good one will at least give you the full 1280x720. This is a bad option, because you lose resolution on all 1080i channels.

 


Scenario #2: 1080i output selected

  • 720p signal is first scaled to 1080p, and then half of the vertical lines are discarded to produce a 1080i image (which half depends on which frame). Static images will retain their 720p quality, but moving images will have resolution of anywhere between 1280x360 and 1280x540. 
  • 1080i signal is sent unaltered

Scaler quality is important here, because it determines the motion resolution of 720p signals. This is also a bad option, because you lose motion resolution on 720p channels, but it is a better option, as you at least retain resolution on static images.

 

Scenario #3: 1080p output selected (not currently possible)

  • 720p signal is scaled to 1080p
  • 1080i signal is deinterlaced to 1080p

All resolution is retained, but both scaler and deinterlacer quality are important here, because some TVs or receivers may be able to deinterlace or scale the source signals better than the U-verse box. Many TVs today have automatic film detection from 1080i sources, so they can recombine fields into progressive frames from 24fps content. From my experience, the deinterlacer on the U-verse is very low quality and simply does a basic interpolation, causing flicker that could be reduced by a deinterlacer capable of motion compensation, as is found on most good TVs and receivers today.


Scenario #4: Native output selected (not currently possible)

  • 720p signal is sent unaltered
  • 1080i signal is sent unaltered 

The U-verse box's scaler and deinterlacer are no longer important, as the TV or receiver will now be doing the scaling and deinterlacing. The only drawback being the delay between switching resolution after changing channels.

Re: what's up with 1080i setting but no 1080p?

[ Edited ]
39 of 47 (3,756 Views)
0
(0)
  • Rate this reply
View profile
Sep 22, 2013 4:34:00 AM
0
(0)
Expert
Edited by SomeJoe7777 on Sep 22, 2013 at 4:34:34 AM

Yes, you are correct on those scenarios, and as we've discussed, the answer would be the "native" output option to avoid all of these issues. A "1080p" output option would work also, but there are two problems with that setting:

1. Not all HD TVs can process a 1080p signal. Older HDTVs, specifically rear-projection CRTs would not operate with that setting.
2. 1080p (either 24 fps or 60fps) is not a legal signal over component cables. HDMI is required by spec (some devices and TVs violate this spec and send 1080p/24 over component anyway, but whether it works or not is manufacturer- and device-specific).

The U-Verse boxes use one of two scaler/deinterlacer processors:

1st generation boxes (Motorola VIP1200/1216/1225, Cisco IPN330/430/4320) use the Sigma Designs 8634.
2nd generation boxes (Motorola VIP2250, Cisco ISB7005/7500) use the Broadcom 7405C.

Both of these are not the top-end scaler/deinterlacers on the market, but they're decent. I've seen much worse in a lot of consumer TVs.

Yes, you are correct on those scenarios, and as we've discussed, the answer would be the "native" output option to avoid all of these issues. A "1080p" output option would work also, but there are two problems with that setting:

1. Not all HD TVs can process a 1080p signal. Older HDTVs, specifically rear-projection CRTs would not operate with that setting.
2. 1080p (either 24 fps or 60fps) is not a legal signal over component cables. HDMI is required by spec (some devices and TVs violate this spec and send 1080p/24 over component anyway, but whether it works or not is manufacturer- and device-specific).

The U-Verse boxes use one of two scaler/deinterlacer processors:

1st generation boxes (Motorola VIP1200/1216/1225, Cisco IPN330/430/4320) use the Sigma Designs 8634.
2nd generation boxes (Motorola VIP2250, Cisco ISB7005/7500) use the Broadcom 7405C.

Both of these are not the top-end scaler/deinterlacers on the market, but they're decent. I've seen much worse in a lot of consumer TVs.

Re: what's up with 1080i setting but no 1080p?

[ Edited ]
40 of 47 (3,720 Views)
0
(0)
  • Rate this reply
View profile
Sep 22, 2013 8:28:55 AM
0
(0)
Scholar
Edited by billmich on Sep 22, 2013 at 8:32:07 AM

I am a "NATIVE MODE" guy. I'd rather have my $4,000 TV handle the processing than some couple hundred (if, that) dollar set top box.

 

I am also partial to native mode over 1080p mode, because 1080P mode (on my comcast cable box at least) does wierd things to anything that is in 480i. (still have some sports pack channels in SD).

 

So I definately prefer native.

 

but then, thats just me.

I am a "NATIVE MODE" guy. I'd rather have my $4,000 TV handle the processing than some couple hundred (if, that) dollar set top box.

 

I am also partial to native mode over 1080p mode, because 1080P mode (on my comcast cable box at least) does wierd things to anything that is in 480i. (still have some sports pack channels in SD).

 

So I definately prefer native.

 

but then, thats just me.

Re: what's up with 1080i setting but no 1080p?

[ Edited ]
41 of 47 (3,689 Views)
0
(0)
  • Rate this reply
View profile
Sep 22, 2013 12:48:24 PM
0
(0)
Tutor

SomeJoe7777 wrote:

Yes, you are correct on those scenarios, and as we've discussed, the answer would be the "native" output option to avoid all of these issues. A "1080p" output option would work also, but there are two problems with that setting:

1. Not all HD TVs can process a 1080p signal. Older HDTVs, specifically rear-projection CRTs would not operate with that setting.
2. 1080p (either 24 fps or 60fps) is not a legal signal over component cables. HDMI is required by spec (some devices and TVs violate this spec and send 1080p/24 over component anyway, but whether it works or not is manufacturer- and device-specific).

The U-Verse boxes use one of two scaler/deinterlacer processors:

1st generation boxes (Motorola VIP1200/1216/1225, Cisco IPN330/430/4320) use the Sigma Designs 8634.
2nd generation boxes (Motorola VIP2250, Cisco ISB7005/7500) use the Broadcom 7405C.

Both of these are not the top-end scaler/deinterlacers on the market, but they're decent. I've seen much worse in a lot of consumer TVs.


Obviously I was talking about a 1080p TV. If your TV is 720p or 1080i, then those output settings would be fine, although, again, native could still be better depending on the scaler/deinterlacer.

 

My box is a first gen unit and the deinterlacer is really bad. It looks like it mmight just be duplicating fields rather than interpolating, and there's absolutely no motion compensation or inverse telecine going on. Furthermore, the scaler doesn't take interlacing into account very well. 480i channels appear to separate fields and then scale, and then recombine fields, then deinterlace if necessary. This produces horrible results. The proper method should be deinterlace to 60p, scale, and then re-interlace if necessary. 

 

The deinterlacer and scaler are some of the worst I've see. Basic progressive-to-progressive scaling might not be bad, but combined with any combination of interlace and progressive, and there's going to be issues that almost any TV is going to do better. Again, this is just my experience with a first gen box. Haven't tried a second gen. I'm guessing they're better, but still not likely as good as most decently priced TVs and receivers.

 

Furthermore, 1080p over component is legal. It didn't use to be, but it is now. I know my PS3 will output 1080p over component, and my receiver and TV will both accept it as input.


SomeJoe7777 wrote:

Yes, you are correct on those scenarios, and as we've discussed, the answer would be the "native" output option to avoid all of these issues. A "1080p" output option would work also, but there are two problems with that setting:

1. Not all HD TVs can process a 1080p signal. Older HDTVs, specifically rear-projection CRTs would not operate with that setting.
2. 1080p (either 24 fps or 60fps) is not a legal signal over component cables. HDMI is required by spec (some devices and TVs violate this spec and send 1080p/24 over component anyway, but whether it works or not is manufacturer- and device-specific).

The U-Verse boxes use one of two scaler/deinterlacer processors:

1st generation boxes (Motorola VIP1200/1216/1225, Cisco IPN330/430/4320) use the Sigma Designs 8634.
2nd generation boxes (Motorola VIP2250, Cisco ISB7005/7500) use the Broadcom 7405C.

Both of these are not the top-end scaler/deinterlacers on the market, but they're decent. I've seen much worse in a lot of consumer TVs.


Obviously I was talking about a 1080p TV. If your TV is 720p or 1080i, then those output settings would be fine, although, again, native could still be better depending on the scaler/deinterlacer.

 

My box is a first gen unit and the deinterlacer is really bad. It looks like it mmight just be duplicating fields rather than interpolating, and there's absolutely no motion compensation or inverse telecine going on. Furthermore, the scaler doesn't take interlacing into account very well. 480i channels appear to separate fields and then scale, and then recombine fields, then deinterlace if necessary. This produces horrible results. The proper method should be deinterlace to 60p, scale, and then re-interlace if necessary. 

 

The deinterlacer and scaler are some of the worst I've see. Basic progressive-to-progressive scaling might not be bad, but combined with any combination of interlace and progressive, and there's going to be issues that almost any TV is going to do better. Again, this is just my experience with a first gen box. Haven't tried a second gen. I'm guessing they're better, but still not likely as good as most decently priced TVs and receivers.

 

Furthermore, 1080p over component is legal. It didn't use to be, but it is now. I know my PS3 will output 1080p over component, and my receiver and TV will both accept it as input.

Re: what's up with 1080i setting but no 1080p?

42 of 47 (3,665 Views)
0
(0)
  • Rate this reply
View profile
Sep 22, 2013 2:17:53 PM
0
(0)
Expert
If 1080p over component is now allowed, that's great, but it doesn't mitigate the problem with many of the existing HDTVs that don't support it. Nevertheless, the box could conceivably support it as an additional setting in the menu, and run the normal 15-second test as it does with the other modes.

Both the Sigma Designs 8634 and Broadcom BCM7405 claim to be motion-adaptive deinterlacers:

http://www.sigmadesigns.com/products.php?id=59
http://www.broadcom.com/products/IPTV/IPTV-Solutions/BCM7405

Many times I see exactly what you're talking about with 480i content that has been upscaled, but I don't think this is occurring in the U-Verse box. As an example, when watching a 720p station (like FOX) and they run a commercial that is 480i, I believe the error is actually on their end when the 480i content is upscaled to 720p. It does indeed look like the fields were separated and separately resized, resulting in very noticable interlacing artifacts when the final 720p frame is transmitted.

Try watching a true 480i feed from one of the SD-only cable channels (don't use a local channel or a channel that has an HD equivalent, because most of those use a HD master feed and it's downscaled to 480i for the SD feed). Watch the 480i feed with the STB output set to 720p or 1080i, and I don't think you will see those interlacing artifacts.

If 1080p over component is now allowed, that's great, but it doesn't mitigate the problem with many of the existing HDTVs that don't support it. Nevertheless, the box could conceivably support it as an additional setting in the menu, and run the normal 15-second test as it does with the other modes.

Both the Sigma Designs 8634 and Broadcom BCM7405 claim to be motion-adaptive deinterlacers:

http://www.sigmadesigns.com/products.php?id=59
http://www.broadcom.com/products/IPTV/IPTV-Solutions/BCM7405

Many times I see exactly what you're talking about with 480i content that has been upscaled, but I don't think this is occurring in the U-Verse box. As an example, when watching a 720p station (like FOX) and they run a commercial that is 480i, I believe the error is actually on their end when the 480i content is upscaled to 720p. It does indeed look like the fields were separated and separately resized, resulting in very noticable interlacing artifacts when the final 720p frame is transmitted.

Try watching a true 480i feed from one of the SD-only cable channels (don't use a local channel or a channel that has an HD equivalent, because most of those use a HD master feed and it's downscaled to 480i for the SD feed). Watch the 480i feed with the STB output set to 720p or 1080i, and I don't think you will see those interlacing artifacts.

Re: what's up with 1080i setting but no 1080p?

43 of 47 (3,651 Views)
Highlighted
0
(0)
  • Rate this reply
View profile
Sep 22, 2013 2:28:04 PM
0
(0)
Tutor

SomeJoe7777 wrote:
If 1080p over component is now allowed, that's great, but it doesn't mitigate the problem with many of the existing HDTVs that don't support it. Nevertheless, the box could conceivably support it as an additional setting in the menu, and run the normal 15-second test as it does with the other modes.

Both the Sigma Designs 8634 and Broadcom BCM7405 claim to be motion-adaptive deinterlacers:

http://www.sigmadesigns.com/products.php?id=59
http://www.broadcom.com/products/IPTV/IPTV-Solutions/BCM7405

Many times I see exactly what you're talking about with 480i content that has been upscaled, but I don't think this is occurring in the U-Verse box. As an example, when watching a 720p station (like FOX) and they run a commercial that is 480i, I believe the error is actually on their end when the 480i content is upscaled to 720p. It does indeed look like the fields were separated and separately resized, resulting in very noticable interlacing artifacts when the final 720p frame is transmitted.

Try watching a true 480i feed from one of the SD-only cable channels (don't use a local channel or a channel that has an HD equivalent, because most of those use a HD master feed and it's downscaled to 480i for the SD feed). Watch the 480i feed with the STB output set to 720p or 1080i, and I don't think you will see those interlacing artifacts.


I have changed my box to 720p mode, and displayed interlaced channels. The imge flickered, even on completely static images. It's clear it's not motion adaptive, at least on the first gen box. The deinterlacers may be capable of it, but the u-verse box must not be taking advantage of it if so.

 

Also, I was specifically referring to 480i content being displayed on 720p/1080i output on U-verse. I have also seen the same effects on network-upscaled content as well, which is just flat out shameful imo, but that's not what I was talking about. I know for a fact the content looks vastly better if I watch an SD channel with the U-verse box set to 480i, so my set can deinterlace and scale properly.


SomeJoe7777 wrote:
If 1080p over component is now allowed, that's great, but it doesn't mitigate the problem with many of the existing HDTVs that don't support it. Nevertheless, the box could conceivably support it as an additional setting in the menu, and run the normal 15-second test as it does with the other modes.

Both the Sigma Designs 8634 and Broadcom BCM7405 claim to be motion-adaptive deinterlacers:

http://www.sigmadesigns.com/products.php?id=59
http://www.broadcom.com/products/IPTV/IPTV-Solutions/BCM7405

Many times I see exactly what you're talking about with 480i content that has been upscaled, but I don't think this is occurring in the U-Verse box. As an example, when watching a 720p station (like FOX) and they run a commercial that is 480i, I believe the error is actually on their end when the 480i content is upscaled to 720p. It does indeed look like the fields were separated and separately resized, resulting in very noticable interlacing artifacts when the final 720p frame is transmitted.

Try watching a true 480i feed from one of the SD-only cable channels (don't use a local channel or a channel that has an HD equivalent, because most of those use a HD master feed and it's downscaled to 480i for the SD feed). Watch the 480i feed with the STB output set to 720p or 1080i, and I don't think you will see those interlacing artifacts.


I have changed my box to 720p mode, and displayed interlaced channels. The imge flickered, even on completely static images. It's clear it's not motion adaptive, at least on the first gen box. The deinterlacers may be capable of it, but the u-verse box must not be taking advantage of it if so.

 

Also, I was specifically referring to 480i content being displayed on 720p/1080i output on U-verse. I have also seen the same effects on network-upscaled content as well, which is just flat out shameful imo, but that's not what I was talking about. I know for a fact the content looks vastly better if I watch an SD channel with the U-verse box set to 480i, so my set can deinterlace and scale properly.

Re: what's up with 1080i setting but no 1080p?

44 of 47 (3,643 Views)
0
(0)
  • Rate this reply
View profile
Mar 8, 2014 4:25:44 PM
0
(0)
Mentor

All I know is that since ditching uverse and switching to directv the pictire is much better.  Even at 1080i on my bravia 55 inches and even in my basement on my 2005 hd ready tv mitsubishi ws65315.  Almost looks new.

All I know is that since ditching uverse and switching to directv the pictire is much better.  Even at 1080i on my bravia 55 inches and even in my basement on my 2005 hd ready tv mitsubishi ws65315.  Almost looks new.

Re: what's up with 1080i setting but no 1080p?

45 of 47 (2,698 Views)
0
(0)
  • Rate this reply
View profile
Mar 8, 2014 6:37:57 PM
0
(0)
ACE - Professor

autismdefensedotcom wrote:

All I know is that since ditching uverse and switching to directv the pictire is much better.  Even at 1080i on my bravia 55 inches and even in my basement on my 2005 hd ready tv mitsubishi ws65315.  Almost looks new.


I am glad you are happy. However, I find that the picture that I get in high definition from U-Verse is excellent.

 


Owning a computer and not having the internet is like buying a refrigerator and not stocking it with food.

Owning a computer and not having the internet is like buying a refrigerator and not stocking it with food.

autismdefensedotcom wrote:

All I know is that since ditching uverse and switching to directv the pictire is much better.  Even at 1080i on my bravia 55 inches and even in my basement on my 2005 hd ready tv mitsubishi ws65315.  Almost looks new.


I am glad you are happy. However, I find that the picture that I get in high definition from U-Verse is excellent.

 


Owning a computer and not having the internet is like buying a refrigerator and not stocking it with food.

Owning a computer and not having the internet is like buying a refrigerator and not stocking it with food.
*The views and opinions expressed on this forum are purely my own. Any product claim, statistic, quote, or other representation about a product or service should be verified with the manufacturer, provider, or party.

Re: what's up with 1080i setting but no 1080p?

46 of 47 (2,668 Views)
0
(0)
  • Rate this reply
View profile
Mar 9, 2014 8:13:33 AM
0
(0)
Scholar

all of this nonsense would be moot if UVERSE offered a "NATIVE" option.

 

Id rather have my $3,000 TV scale the picture than some rented set tob box

all of this nonsense would be moot if UVERSE offered a "NATIVE" option.

 

Id rather have my $3,000 TV scale the picture than some rented set tob box

Re: what's up with 1080i setting but no 1080p?

47 of 47 (2,641 Views)
Share this post
Share this post