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Posted Jul 3, 2013
11:31:29 PM
AT&T Uverse and Twitch.tv

Not sure if it has been posted about on this board before but in the last couple of months there has been a huge stutter and lag problem across the board for all major ISP's and this site, to include Uverse. From what I can tell it occurs at the Level 3 CDN that uverse routes through. I know Comcast and Time Warner have talked to Twitch.tv to get this issue fixed but is AT&T going to be doing anything about it?

Not sure if it has been posted about on this board before but in the last couple of months there has been a huge stutter and lag problem across the board for all major ISP's and this site, to include Uverse. From what I can tell it occurs at the Level 3 CDN that uverse routes through. I know Comcast and Time Warner have talked to Twitch.tv to get this issue fixed but is AT&T going to be doing anything about it?

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Jul 31, 2013 4:38:03 AM
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ACE - Expert
Edited by JefferMC on Jul 31, 2013 at 4:40:06 AM

kmharris09 wrote:

I am having the exact same problem. I ran a traceroute to twitch.tv and almost every hop times out.

 

As explained numerous times on these forums, AT&T's decision to not respond to the ICMP messages used by traceroute does not imply anything with regards to how these same routers handle TCP or UDP traffic.

 

What my options for fixing the stuttering issue?

 

I don't quite follow some of the analogies. Is the issue that twitch won't pay for sufficient upload speed? That seems very unlikely because it makes their service unusable. My understanding is that during high traffic periods ATT simply throttles certain high volume web services to save themselves money on developing bandwidth. Am I not correctly understanding the problem?

 

You are not understanding the problem.  There is no deliberate or active throttling or active traffic shaping going on.  Actually it's more complicated than my analogy.  Twitch.TV has their ISP.  AT&T is your ISP.  The ISP's have connections between them where they agree to a certain connection size (like you did when you subscribed to your ISP).  These are called peering arrangements.  The original idea was "you scratch my back so my customers can get to yours, and I'll scratch your back to your customers can get to mine."  See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peering.  After a while, because of the difference of size in ISPs, paid peering became the norm.  ISPs with a lot of customers want companies with a few customers to pay for their data connection to all their customers.  Here's likely where our conflicts begin.  Twitch.TV's ISP and AT&T have agreed to some peering connections of a bandwidth for a rate.  Twitch.TV's growth has caused the load on some of these connections to reach the agreed upon bandwidth.  Unless AT&T and Twitch.TV's ISP agree to a new peering arrangement for more bandwidth before the expiration of their current arrangement, this situation will continue.

 

Twitch.TV's ISP is likely going to Twitch.TV and saying: "Y'all need to pay us more money because we need to expand our peering connections."  Twitch.TV is probably pointing at their contract and saying "nope." 

...

 


 

*The views and opinions expressed on this forum are purely my own. Any product claim, statistic, quote, or other representation about a product or service should be verified with the manufacturer, provider, or party.
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AT&T Uverse and Twitch.tv

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Aug 1, 2013 9:39:38 AM
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Aug 1, 2013 12:47:01 PM
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Did you happen to notice that the article you cited was nearly 3 years old and has nothing to do with Twitch.TV (which I don't even think was in business then)?

 

Did you happen to notice that the article you cited was nearly 3 years old and has nothing to do with Twitch.TV (which I don't even think was in business then)?

 

*The views and opinions expressed on this forum are purely my own. Any product claim, statistic, quote, or other representation about a product or service should be verified with the manufacturer, provider, or party.

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Aug 1, 2013 1:24:52 PM
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Edited by Izzmo on Aug 1, 2013 at 1:25:31 PM

Yes, 3 years ago, but nothing new saying it was ever resolved.

Also, at this point it's not really up to Twitch.tv, since they use Level3 as their ISP/CDN. It's not up to Level3 and AT&T. Same with YouTube, they don't purely use Level3, but in the locations where people connect to YT through L3, the connection is terrible as well. So, it's obviously a beef with Level3 and AT&T.

 

Also, Twitch.tv was in business 3 years ago. They were around since 2008 I believe (at least that's when I started using them). Justin.tv, their parent, has been around much longer.

~Izzmo

Yes, 3 years ago, but nothing new saying it was ever resolved.

Also, at this point it's not really up to Twitch.tv, since they use Level3 as their ISP/CDN. It's not up to Level3 and AT&T. Same with YouTube, they don't purely use Level3, but in the locations where people connect to YT through L3, the connection is terrible as well. So, it's obviously a beef with Level3 and AT&T.

 

Also, Twitch.tv was in business 3 years ago. They were around since 2008 I believe (at least that's when I started using them). Justin.tv, their parent, has been around much longer.

Re: AT&T Uverse and Twitch.tv

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Aug 2, 2013 6:12:47 PM
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ACE - Master

Izzmo wrote:

Yes, 3 years ago, but nothing new saying it was ever resolved.

Also, at this point it's not really up to Twitch.tv, since they use Level3 as their ISP/CDN. It's not up to Level3 and AT&T. Same with YouTube, they don't purely use Level3, but in the locations where people connect to YT through L3, the connection is terrible as well. So, it's obviously a beef with Level3 and AT&T.

 

Also, Twitch.tv was in business 3 years ago. They were around since 2008 I believe (at least that's when I started using them). Justin.tv, their parent, has been around much longer.


As for YouTube, it doesn't matter who your isp is.  We have OC-1 at work and there are times that YouTube is crap.  It has nothing to do with AT&T in that case.  I have a friend who has FiOS and YouTube can be crap for him.  Do some research and you will see that every provider has complained about YouTube speed issues.  As far as Twitch, do a Google search and you wil see that Comcast has issues with them.  It's also an issue in Europe.  Hmmm, don't think AT&T or Comcast are over there so I'd venture to guess that the problem lies withing Twitch's system somewhere.

” Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports … all others are games.”- Ernest Hemingway

Izzmo wrote:

Yes, 3 years ago, but nothing new saying it was ever resolved.

Also, at this point it's not really up to Twitch.tv, since they use Level3 as their ISP/CDN. It's not up to Level3 and AT&T. Same with YouTube, they don't purely use Level3, but in the locations where people connect to YT through L3, the connection is terrible as well. So, it's obviously a beef with Level3 and AT&T.

 

Also, Twitch.tv was in business 3 years ago. They were around since 2008 I believe (at least that's when I started using them). Justin.tv, their parent, has been around much longer.


As for YouTube, it doesn't matter who your isp is.  We have OC-1 at work and there are times that YouTube is crap.  It has nothing to do with AT&T in that case.  I have a friend who has FiOS and YouTube can be crap for him.  Do some research and you will see that every provider has complained about YouTube speed issues.  As far as Twitch, do a Google search and you wil see that Comcast has issues with them.  It's also an issue in Europe.  Hmmm, don't think AT&T or Comcast are over there so I'd venture to guess that the problem lies withing Twitch's system somewhere.

” Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports … all others are games.”- Ernest Hemingway
*The views and opinions expressed on this forum are purely my own. Any product claim, statistic, quote, or other representation about a product or service should be verified with the manufacturer, provider, or party.

Re: AT&T Uverse and Twitch.tv

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Aug 3, 2013 8:27:18 AM
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Edited by Izzmo on Aug 3, 2013 at 8:27:49 AM

oufanindallas:

 

I was just giving YouTube as an example, I realize all other ISP's have problems with them at some point.

 

Back on topic, Twitch has problems with TWC, and Comcast had issues a few months ago but seem to have been resolved.

 

As far as your comment on Europe, that is Twitch's problem and they are adding more servers over there, but that is not within the scope of this issue.

~Izzmo

oufanindallas:

 

I was just giving YouTube as an example, I realize all other ISP's have problems with them at some point.

 

Back on topic, Twitch has problems with TWC, and Comcast had issues a few months ago but seem to have been resolved.

 

As far as your comment on Europe, that is Twitch's problem and they are adding more servers over there, but that is not within the scope of this issue.

Re: AT&T Uverse and Twitch.tv

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Aug 6, 2013 8:41:04 AM
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I just got AT&T U-verse this past weekend for my house w/ the 24mbps plan and I noticed this happening right away. It's very frustrating since I previously had Charter Cable (with a slower download speed) and had no issues viewing 1080p quality streams.

I'm just east of DFW, and like quite a few in this area it seems to be an consistent issue.

I just got AT&T U-verse this past weekend for my house w/ the 24mbps plan and I noticed this happening right away. It's very frustrating since I previously had Charter Cable (with a slower download speed) and had no issues viewing 1080p quality streams.

I'm just east of DFW, and like quite a few in this area it seems to be an consistent issue.

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Aug 6, 2013 9:20:13 AM
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ACE - Master

Izzmo wrote:

oufanindallas:

 

I was just giving YouTube as an example, I realize all other ISP's have problems with them at some point.

 

Back on topic, Twitch has problems with TWC, and Comcast had issues a few months ago but seem to have been resolved.

 

As far as your comment on Europe, that is Twitch's problem and they are adding more servers over there, but that is not within the scope of this issue.


You say they are adding more servers in Europe, you don't think that doing the same here could help alleviate congestion issues.

” Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports … all others are games.”- Ernest Hemingway

Izzmo wrote:

oufanindallas:

 

I was just giving YouTube as an example, I realize all other ISP's have problems with them at some point.

 

Back on topic, Twitch has problems with TWC, and Comcast had issues a few months ago but seem to have been resolved.

 

As far as your comment on Europe, that is Twitch's problem and they are adding more servers over there, but that is not within the scope of this issue.


You say they are adding more servers in Europe, you don't think that doing the same here could help alleviate congestion issues.

” Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports … all others are games.”- Ernest Hemingway
*The views and opinions expressed on this forum are purely my own. Any product claim, statistic, quote, or other representation about a product or service should be verified with the manufacturer, provider, or party.

Re: AT&T Uverse and Twitch.tv

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Aug 6, 2013 9:42:34 AM
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@oufanindallas Guy, you clearly aren't reading. Obviously it won't help because I can VPN to another ISP's network and it will work just fine, within my own state. So clearly it's just peering routes that need to be opened or expanded within AT&T to Level3.

~Izzmo

@oufanindallas Guy, you clearly aren't reading. Obviously it won't help because I can VPN to another ISP's network and it will work just fine, within my own state. So clearly it's just peering routes that need to be opened or expanded within AT&T to Level3.

Re: AT&T Uverse and Twitch.tv

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Aug 6, 2013 11:40:59 AM
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First, thank you for your reply JefferMC. I learned about something I did not know anything about! Really appreciate it.

 

Can you explain the ATT congestion management process? The bulk of my post was in regard to congestion management. You state that "there is no deliberate or active throttling or active traffic shaping going on." However, you did not define "throttling." The hard fact is that ATT admits it "manages congestion" on wired networks, but does not explain how or to what extent it manages congestion. I am concerned that I pay for a 1 MB connection, but during peak traffic periods they do not actually deliver me 1 MB because they have insufficient bandwidth. But, they do not just cut my bandwidth to all sites, they only cut it to sites like Twitch (or anyone that steams 1080p video) that send a lot of data.

 

The ultimate question is: how does ATT "manage congestion." I suspect their term "managing congestion" is equivalent to the term "throttling."

 

Again, thank you for shedding light on these issues.

First, thank you for your reply JefferMC. I learned about something I did not know anything about! Really appreciate it.

 

Can you explain the ATT congestion management process? The bulk of my post was in regard to congestion management. You state that "there is no deliberate or active throttling or active traffic shaping going on." However, you did not define "throttling." The hard fact is that ATT admits it "manages congestion" on wired networks, but does not explain how or to what extent it manages congestion. I am concerned that I pay for a 1 MB connection, but during peak traffic periods they do not actually deliver me 1 MB because they have insufficient bandwidth. But, they do not just cut my bandwidth to all sites, they only cut it to sites like Twitch (or anyone that steams 1080p video) that send a lot of data.

 

The ultimate question is: how does ATT "manage congestion." I suspect their term "managing congestion" is equivalent to the term "throttling."

 

Again, thank you for shedding light on these issues.

Re: AT&T Uverse and Twitch.tv

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Aug 6, 2013 12:13:41 PM
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@kmharris09 I don't think that's the issue at hand, since that is just network load balancing, and just reroutes based on the least congested line. The real problem is, when all the lines are congested and AT&T always has to go the "long route" and causes your streams to lag.

~Izzmo

@kmharris09 I don't think that's the issue at hand, since that is just network load balancing, and just reroutes based on the least congested line. The real problem is, when all the lines are congested and AT&T always has to go the "long route" and causes your streams to lag.

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Aug 6, 2013 2:03:06 PM
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ACE - Expert

What I mean by that is that AT&T does not have filters set up that say "Hm... traffic from this Twitch.TV CDN IP has reached 15 Mpbs, so we're going to stop accepting packets from them."

 

What they have is multiple connections to multiple ISP's, etc.  All of these connections have some physical limitations.  Some of them may have contractural/financial limitations that aren't physical (e.g. while the connection could carry 1 Gbps, the ISP is only paying for 0.5 Gbps to the peering provider). Some connections never go near these limits.  Some hit them during high traffic times.  Sometimes there are other routes that will pass the traffic nearly as well.  Sometimes the packet have to wait.

 

Connections with high consumer rates (e.g. U-verse network) may see high contention from consumer focused services (e.g. Twitch.TV) during evenings while commercial networks (e.g. Verizon Business) may have nearly zero traffic in the peering links.  If you VPNed from U-verse to a Verizon Business customer circuit, you may work around the problem.  During the work day, other patterns may emerge.

 

My point is that there is no compelling evidence that AT&T is arbitrarily throttling any particular company's traffic to punish them or its customers.  There are much simpler explanations that fit the situation better.  While nearly everyone's Internet connection has more bandwidth than they did 10 years ago, the last mile to the consumer has been growing faster than the other end and some parts in the middle. 

 

 

What I mean by that is that AT&T does not have filters set up that say "Hm... traffic from this Twitch.TV CDN IP has reached 15 Mpbs, so we're going to stop accepting packets from them."

 

What they have is multiple connections to multiple ISP's, etc.  All of these connections have some physical limitations.  Some of them may have contractural/financial limitations that aren't physical (e.g. while the connection could carry 1 Gbps, the ISP is only paying for 0.5 Gbps to the peering provider). Some connections never go near these limits.  Some hit them during high traffic times.  Sometimes there are other routes that will pass the traffic nearly as well.  Sometimes the packet have to wait.

 

Connections with high consumer rates (e.g. U-verse network) may see high contention from consumer focused services (e.g. Twitch.TV) during evenings while commercial networks (e.g. Verizon Business) may have nearly zero traffic in the peering links.  If you VPNed from U-verse to a Verizon Business customer circuit, you may work around the problem.  During the work day, other patterns may emerge.

 

My point is that there is no compelling evidence that AT&T is arbitrarily throttling any particular company's traffic to punish them or its customers.  There are much simpler explanations that fit the situation better.  While nearly everyone's Internet connection has more bandwidth than they did 10 years ago, the last mile to the consumer has been growing faster than the other end and some parts in the middle. 

 

 

*The views and opinions expressed on this forum are purely my own. Any product claim, statistic, quote, or other representation about a product or service should be verified with the manufacturer, provider, or party.

Re: AT&T Uverse and Twitch.tv

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Aug 13, 2013 3:15:13 PM
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Let me see if I understand your explanation.

 

Basically, each item of data is stored in a "packet." The packet goes from the originator (twitch) to the end user (me) via a series of ISPs. The "last mile" ISP in my case would be ATT.

 

Are you saying that other ISPs do not have enough bandwidth, and, as a result, the last mile ISP does not receive the data fast enough from the other ISPs?

 

How many other ISPs do you think the data goes through? Is there a way to determine which ISPs are the problem?

 

Is it a safe assumption that the first mile provider (perhaps level 3 or some other ISP), provides plenty of bandwidth to Twitch? If they did not, then Twitch would have a fail of a business because people could not watch HD video. I am sure Twitch's ISP provides them all the bandwidth they could possibly want because bandwidth is so critical to their business.

 

Is there any way to control which ISPs the data goes through?

 

Is it possible for ATT to refuse to connect to other ISPs that do not provide sufficient bandwidth?

 

Is there any way to empirically verify that the "physical limitation" is not AT&T?

 

To be clear, I don't think anyone can reasonably assert that ATT "arbitrarily throttles traffic to punish companies." Doing so would be a rediculously poor business strategy and probably illegal LOL. The question should be framed as, does ATT purposefully throttle high bandwidth traffic during peak usage periods because ATT does not have enough bandwidth for everyone? They must use some method to pick packets to pass when they do not have enough bandwidth. I want to know what that method is.

Let me see if I understand your explanation.

 

Basically, each item of data is stored in a "packet." The packet goes from the originator (twitch) to the end user (me) via a series of ISPs. The "last mile" ISP in my case would be ATT.

 

Are you saying that other ISPs do not have enough bandwidth, and, as a result, the last mile ISP does not receive the data fast enough from the other ISPs?

 

How many other ISPs do you think the data goes through? Is there a way to determine which ISPs are the problem?

 

Is it a safe assumption that the first mile provider (perhaps level 3 or some other ISP), provides plenty of bandwidth to Twitch? If they did not, then Twitch would have a fail of a business because people could not watch HD video. I am sure Twitch's ISP provides them all the bandwidth they could possibly want because bandwidth is so critical to their business.

 

Is there any way to control which ISPs the data goes through?

 

Is it possible for ATT to refuse to connect to other ISPs that do not provide sufficient bandwidth?

 

Is there any way to empirically verify that the "physical limitation" is not AT&T?

 

To be clear, I don't think anyone can reasonably assert that ATT "arbitrarily throttles traffic to punish companies." Doing so would be a rediculously poor business strategy and probably illegal LOL. The question should be framed as, does ATT purposefully throttle high bandwidth traffic during peak usage periods because ATT does not have enough bandwidth for everyone? They must use some method to pick packets to pass when they do not have enough bandwidth. I want to know what that method is.

Re: AT&T Uverse and Twitch.tv

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Aug 14, 2013 4:55:00 AM
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ACE - Expert

Normally, with a company in the business of providing large amounts of data (e.g. Twitch.TV) they have a content delivery network that provides content from many different locations, normally on one or more ISPs  and have mulitple peering points to consumer ISPs.  So theres not usually many ISPs in this scenario (I'd say three, tops), but still amultitude of different paths to choose from.

 

So, obvious choke points or possible limitations could be:

- Content servers don't have enough power to serve the requests

- Content server networks don't have enough bandwidth

- Content server network hardware can't keep up with packet load

- Content ISP Network to peering point is over loaded

- Network routing error takes data to sub-optimum peering point

- Peering point is over congested (network/hardware/contracted bandwidth)

- Consumer ISP network between peering point and last mile is over congested

- Consumer ISP hardware is over loaded

- Consumer's circuit/last mile is bad/overloaded (including contracted bandwidth)

- Consumer's in home network or equipment is overloaded

 

Any and or all of these could be in play and can change by the hour.

 

I would not assume that Twitch.TV has "plenty of" bandwidth.  They are a business with income and expenses.  Unlimited bandwidth is expensive.

 

 

Normally, with a company in the business of providing large amounts of data (e.g. Twitch.TV) they have a content delivery network that provides content from many different locations, normally on one or more ISPs  and have mulitple peering points to consumer ISPs.  So theres not usually many ISPs in this scenario (I'd say three, tops), but still amultitude of different paths to choose from.

 

So, obvious choke points or possible limitations could be:

- Content servers don't have enough power to serve the requests

- Content server networks don't have enough bandwidth

- Content server network hardware can't keep up with packet load

- Content ISP Network to peering point is over loaded

- Network routing error takes data to sub-optimum peering point

- Peering point is over congested (network/hardware/contracted bandwidth)

- Consumer ISP network between peering point and last mile is over congested

- Consumer ISP hardware is over loaded

- Consumer's circuit/last mile is bad/overloaded (including contracted bandwidth)

- Consumer's in home network or equipment is overloaded

 

Any and or all of these could be in play and can change by the hour.

 

I would not assume that Twitch.TV has "plenty of" bandwidth.  They are a business with income and expenses.  Unlimited bandwidth is expensive.

 

 

*The views and opinions expressed on this forum are purely my own. Any product claim, statistic, quote, or other representation about a product or service should be verified with the manufacturer, provider, or party.

Re: AT&T Uverse and Twitch.tv

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Aug 17, 2013 4:02:14 PM
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@jefferMC

This is a known ATT problem. I just moved into a new house that only has att uverse. But i had a small company called One Source and i had no problem streaming 4 streams at a time at 1080p. But with ATT. I can only stream 720p anytime before noon. After that it is 480p only or lower. ATT is routeing us wrong. If you look thou google you will notice that this is happening all over the US. so it IS A ATT PROBLEM. Not twitch.tv
@jefferMC

This is a known ATT problem. I just moved into a new house that only has att uverse. But i had a small company called One Source and i had no problem streaming 4 streams at a time at 1080p. But with ATT. I can only stream 720p anytime before noon. After that it is 480p only or lower. ATT is routeing us wrong. If you look thou google you will notice that this is happening all over the US. so it IS A ATT PROBLEM. Not twitch.tv

Re: AT&T Uverse and Twitch.tv

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Aug 18, 2013 2:42:03 PM
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ACE - Expert

Donovan1981 wrote:
@jefferMC

This is a known ATT problem. I just moved into a new house that only has att uverse. But i had a small company called One Source and i had no problem streaming 4 streams at a time at 1080p. But with ATT. I can only stream 720p anytime before noon. After that it is 480p only or lower. ATT is routeing us wrong. If you look thou google you will notice that this is happening all over the US. so it IS A ATT PROBLEM. Not twitch.tv

Thank you for your opinion, however, you've just done the equivalent of taking a single drop of water from the ocean and determining from it that all bodies of water on earth are salinated.

 

 


Donovan1981 wrote:
@jefferMC

This is a known ATT problem. I just moved into a new house that only has att uverse. But i had a small company called One Source and i had no problem streaming 4 streams at a time at 1080p. But with ATT. I can only stream 720p anytime before noon. After that it is 480p only or lower. ATT is routeing us wrong. If you look thou google you will notice that this is happening all over the US. so it IS A ATT PROBLEM. Not twitch.tv

Thank you for your opinion, however, you've just done the equivalent of taking a single drop of water from the ocean and determining from it that all bodies of water on earth are salinated.

 

 

*The views and opinions expressed on this forum are purely my own. Any product claim, statistic, quote, or other representation about a product or service should be verified with the manufacturer, provider, or party.

Re: AT&T Uverse and Twitch.tv

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Aug 19, 2013 10:25:12 AM
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ACE - Master

Donovan1981 wrote:
@jefferMC

This is a known ATT problem. I just moved into a new house that only has att uverse. But i had a small company called One Source and i had no problem streaming 4 streams at a time at 1080p. But with ATT. I can only stream 720p anytime before noon. After that it is 480p only or lower. ATT is routeing us wrong. If you look thou google you will notice that this is happening all over the US. so it IS A ATT PROBLEM. Not twitch.tv

Care to quote your source or are you just making another assumtion?

 

” Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports … all others are games.”- Ernest Hemingway

Donovan1981 wrote:
@jefferMC

This is a known ATT problem. I just moved into a new house that only has att uverse. But i had a small company called One Source and i had no problem streaming 4 streams at a time at 1080p. But with ATT. I can only stream 720p anytime before noon. After that it is 480p only or lower. ATT is routeing us wrong. If you look thou google you will notice that this is happening all over the US. so it IS A ATT PROBLEM. Not twitch.tv

Care to quote your source or are you just making another assumtion?

 

” Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports … all others are games.”- Ernest Hemingway
*The views and opinions expressed on this forum are purely my own. Any product claim, statistic, quote, or other representation about a product or service should be verified with the manufacturer, provider, or party.

Re: AT&T Uverse and Twitch.tv

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Aug 20, 2013 8:53:47 PM
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https://www.google.com/#fp=c49cf3b642d89bba&q=att+uverse+and+twitch.tv+problems


Like i said. If you look up thou google and you will find out how many people are posting about the problems they are having with twitch.

I even have problems with netflix taking a while to load into HD. I called Tech support and they told me it was my video card.. I ended the call and gave up on ATT uverse for now.
https://www.google.com/#fp=c49cf3b642d89bba&q=att+uverse+and+twitch.tv+problems


Like i said. If you look up thou google and you will find out how many people are posting about the problems they are having with twitch.

I even have problems with netflix taking a while to load into HD. I called Tech support and they told me it was my video card.. I ended the call and gave up on ATT uverse for now.

Re: AT&T Uverse and Twitch.tv

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Aug 21, 2013 4:26:15 AM
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ACE - Expert
Edited by JefferMC on Aug 21, 2013 at 4:28:20 AM

Well, while you're at it, you might also be interested in these searches, as they're returning a large number of hits:

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=comcast+and+twitch.tv+problems

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=Charter+and+twitch.tv+problems

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=TWC+and+twitch.tv+problems

 

Be sure to check out your choice of U-verse replacement before switching.

Well, while you're at it, you might also be interested in these searches, as they're returning a large number of hits:

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=comcast+and+twitch.tv+problems

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=Charter+and+twitch.tv+problems

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=TWC+and+twitch.tv+problems

 

Be sure to check out your choice of U-verse replacement before switching.

*The views and opinions expressed on this forum are purely my own. Any product claim, statistic, quote, or other representation about a product or service should be verified with the manufacturer, provider, or party.

Re: AT&T Uverse and Twitch.tv

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Aug 21, 2013 8:35:22 PM
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So you are telling me that some company called One source in Keller TX can run twitch with out a problem. But yet a company like ATT can not? But its a twitch problem? Im going to make this as easy as i can.

 

 

One source = no problem. No matter how many streams i had up at 1080p

 

ATT Uverse = Can not watch 1 stream above 480p

 

ALL that means to me as a customer is that ATT has a problem with something that they need to fix.

 

I can watch streams on my iphone with no problems and its also on ATT. So it is a uverse problem.

So you are telling me that some company called One source in Keller TX can run twitch with out a problem. But yet a company like ATT can not? But its a twitch problem? Im going to make this as easy as i can.

 

 

One source = no problem. No matter how many streams i had up at 1080p

 

ATT Uverse = Can not watch 1 stream above 480p

 

ALL that means to me as a customer is that ATT has a problem with something that they need to fix.

 

I can watch streams on my iphone with no problems and its also on ATT. So it is a uverse problem.

Re: AT&T Uverse and Twitch.tv

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Aug 22, 2013 7:39:14 AM
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Edited by Taylarie on Aug 22, 2013 at 7:47:19 AM

@Donovan1981 - Don't let JefferMC and oufanindallas get to you.  They clearly think it is just Twitch.tv, even though we all have experienced that we can view the same streams fine on other ISP's or, like your said, on our mobile devices ON AT&T's network. It is, in fact, a U-VERSE problem.

 

I don't know how many people need to explain it different ways for these trolls JefferMC and oufanindallas need to understand it. I am on UVERSE, on the highest package available, and cannot stream 480p streams. While, on my phone, I can stream 1080 just fine. Furthermore, I can VPN out of AT&T's network onto some other ISP's and it will be fine. Clearly, this is a AT&T U-VERSE problem.

 

{keep it courteous}

~Izzmo

@Donovan1981 - Don't let JefferMC and oufanindallas get to you.  They clearly think it is just Twitch.tv, even though we all have experienced that we can view the same streams fine on other ISP's or, like your said, on our mobile devices ON AT&T's network. It is, in fact, a U-VERSE problem.

 

I don't know how many people need to explain it different ways for these trolls JefferMC and oufanindallas need to understand it. I am on UVERSE, on the highest package available, and cannot stream 480p streams. While, on my phone, I can stream 1080 just fine. Furthermore, I can VPN out of AT&T's network onto some other ISP's and it will be fine. Clearly, this is a AT&T U-VERSE problem.

 

{keep it courteous}

Re: AT&T Uverse and Twitch.tv

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Aug 22, 2013 1:28:39 PM
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Izzmo wrote:

@Donovan1981 - Don't let JefferMC and oufanindallas get to you.  They clearly think it is just Twitch.tv, even though we all have experienced that we can view the same streams fine on other ISP's or, like your said, on our mobile devices ON AT&T's network. It is, in fact, a U-VERSE problem.

 

I don't know how many people need to explain it different ways for these trolls JefferMC and oufanindallas need to understand it. I am on UVERSE, on the highest package available, and cannot stream 480p streams. While, on my phone, I can stream 1080 just fine. Furthermore, I can VPN out of AT&T's network onto some other ISP's and it will be fine. Clearly, this is a AT&T U-VERSE problem.

 

{keep it courteous}


There is a problem moving data between the Twitch.TV CDN and you.  That problem may exist in the U-verse distribution system.  However, it may also exist in one or more peering points between Twitch.TV's CDN and U-verse, or within Twitch.TV's CDN that is being selected by AT&T's DNS servers to serve your house.

 

My issue with these posts I have replied to is that they state that there is an obvious and simple problem that obviously exists solely within AT&T's U-verse network, within AT&T's sole control and that AT&T simply refuses to solve this problem.  My responses are only to point out that these things are not simple, not likely solely AT&T's responsibility and not unique to AT&T.

 

 


Izzmo wrote:

@Donovan1981 - Don't let JefferMC and oufanindallas get to you.  They clearly think it is just Twitch.tv, even though we all have experienced that we can view the same streams fine on other ISP's or, like your said, on our mobile devices ON AT&T's network. It is, in fact, a U-VERSE problem.

 

I don't know how many people need to explain it different ways for these trolls JefferMC and oufanindallas need to understand it. I am on UVERSE, on the highest package available, and cannot stream 480p streams. While, on my phone, I can stream 1080 just fine. Furthermore, I can VPN out of AT&T's network onto some other ISP's and it will be fine. Clearly, this is a AT&T U-VERSE problem.

 

{keep it courteous}


There is a problem moving data between the Twitch.TV CDN and you.  That problem may exist in the U-verse distribution system.  However, it may also exist in one or more peering points between Twitch.TV's CDN and U-verse, or within Twitch.TV's CDN that is being selected by AT&T's DNS servers to serve your house.

 

My issue with these posts I have replied to is that they state that there is an obvious and simple problem that obviously exists solely within AT&T's U-verse network, within AT&T's sole control and that AT&T simply refuses to solve this problem.  My responses are only to point out that these things are not simple, not likely solely AT&T's responsibility and not unique to AT&T.

 

 

*The views and opinions expressed on this forum are purely my own. Any product claim, statistic, quote, or other representation about a product or service should be verified with the manufacturer, provider, or party.

Re: AT&T Uverse and Twitch.tv

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Aug 22, 2013 11:09:56 PM
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JefferMC wrote:

Normally, with a company in the business of providing large amounts of data (e.g. Twitch.TV) they have a content delivery network that provides content from many different locations, normally on one or more ISPs  and have mulitple peering points to consumer ISPs.  So theres not usually many ISPs in this scenario (I'd say three, tops), but still amultitude of different paths to choose from.

 

So, obvious choke points or possible limitations could be:

- Content servers don't have enough power to serve the requests

- Content server networks don't have enough bandwidth

- Content server network hardware can't keep up with packet load

- Content ISP Network to peering point is over loaded

- Network routing error takes data to sub-optimum peering point

- Peering point is over congested (network/hardware/contracted bandwidth)

- Consumer ISP network between peering point and last mile is over congested

- Consumer ISP hardware is over loaded

- Consumer's circuit/last mile is bad/overloaded (including contracted bandwidth)

- Consumer's in home network or equipment is overloaded

 

Any and or all of these could be in play and can change by the hour.

 

I would not assume that Twitch.TV has "plenty of" bandwidth.  They are a business with income and expenses.  Unlimited bandwidth is expensive.

 

 


Bullets 1, 2, 3, and 4 are probably the reason why, Twitch does not have enough power anymore with their growth (and they are growing very slowly compared to their growth), And probably since they break their own chat and video servers every other day.


JefferMC wrote:

Normally, with a company in the business of providing large amounts of data (e.g. Twitch.TV) they have a content delivery network that provides content from many different locations, normally on one or more ISPs  and have mulitple peering points to consumer ISPs.  So theres not usually many ISPs in this scenario (I'd say three, tops), but still amultitude of different paths to choose from.

 

So, obvious choke points or possible limitations could be:

- Content servers don't have enough power to serve the requests

- Content server networks don't have enough bandwidth

- Content server network hardware can't keep up with packet load

- Content ISP Network to peering point is over loaded

- Network routing error takes data to sub-optimum peering point

- Peering point is over congested (network/hardware/contracted bandwidth)

- Consumer ISP network between peering point and last mile is over congested

- Consumer ISP hardware is over loaded

- Consumer's circuit/last mile is bad/overloaded (including contracted bandwidth)

- Consumer's in home network or equipment is overloaded

 

Any and or all of these could be in play and can change by the hour.

 

I would not assume that Twitch.TV has "plenty of" bandwidth.  They are a business with income and expenses.  Unlimited bandwidth is expensive.

 

 


Bullets 1, 2, 3, and 4 are probably the reason why, Twitch does not have enough power anymore with their growth (and they are growing very slowly compared to their growth), And probably since they break their own chat and video servers every other day.

Re: AT&T Uverse and Twitch.tv

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Aug 23, 2013 7:23:22 AM
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I'm not sure how that makes any sense.. considering one can just go to a different ISP.. at the same time, same stream, and it is fine. Obviously it is not bandwidth.

~Izzmo

I'm not sure how that makes any sense.. considering one can just go to a different ISP.. at the same time, same stream, and it is fine. Obviously it is not bandwidth.

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Aug 23, 2013 7:38:49 AM
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Different ISP may mean totally different CDN infrastructure.  Note that my son uses Twitch.TV on AT&T U-verse on a daily basis and rarely complains about buffering or lag.  Same ISP, different results from you.

 

Different ISP may mean totally different CDN infrastructure.  Note that my son uses Twitch.TV on AT&T U-verse on a daily basis and rarely complains about buffering or lag.  Same ISP, different results from you.

 

*The views and opinions expressed on this forum are purely my own. Any product claim, statistic, quote, or other representation about a product or service should be verified with the manufacturer, provider, or party.

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Aug 23, 2013 8:00:58 AM
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..that means nothing without more details. What quality? What type of show? Are there are a lot of viewers on the stream he is watching?
~Izzmo
..that means nothing without more details. What quality? What type of show? Are there are a lot of viewers on the stream he is watching?

Re: AT&T Uverse and Twitch.tv

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Aug 23, 2013 9:13:54 AM
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also what time does he watch streams? Because before noon its fine. One source also used ATT lines on the VDSL. Because when i would do a tracert. It would show a sbcgobal IP address. Its just uverse trying to limit us due to the bandwith 

also what time does he watch streams? Because before noon its fine. One source also used ATT lines on the VDSL. Because when i would do a tracert. It would show a sbcgobal IP address. Its just uverse trying to limit us due to the bandwith 

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Aug 23, 2013 10:33:15 AM
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Izzmo wrote:
..that means nothing without more details. What quality? What type of show? Are there are a lot of viewers on the stream he is watching?

Time of day I can answer: anywhere between about 9 AM and 11 PM, any day of the week, but more on weekends.  He's watching League of Legends captures, usually in full screen but I haven't paid much attention to the resolution, though I can say it didn't look grainy or jumpy when I've looked at it.

And... what possible difference does it make on "Are there are a lot of viewers on the stream he is watching?"

 


Izzmo wrote:
..that means nothing without more details. What quality? What type of show? Are there are a lot of viewers on the stream he is watching?

Time of day I can answer: anywhere between about 9 AM and 11 PM, any day of the week, but more on weekends.  He's watching League of Legends captures, usually in full screen but I haven't paid much attention to the resolution, though I can say it didn't look grainy or jumpy when I've looked at it.

And... what possible difference does it make on "Are there are a lot of viewers on the stream he is watching?"

 

*The views and opinions expressed on this forum are purely my own. Any product claim, statistic, quote, or other representation about a product or service should be verified with the manufacturer, provider, or party.

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Aug 23, 2013 10:36:20 AM
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Donovan1981 wrote:

also what time does he watch streams? Because before noon its fine. ...


Between 9AM and 11 PM ET, and when I'm looking at it with him, its usually in the evening.


Donovan1981 wrote:

... One source also used ATT lines on the VDSL. Because when i would do a tracert. It would show a sbcgobal IP address. Its just uverse trying to limit us due to the bandwith 


Would you like a chance to rephrase those statements as to make a cogent argument, because you certainly failed that time.


Donovan1981 wrote:

also what time does he watch streams? Because before noon its fine. ...


Between 9AM and 11 PM ET, and when I'm looking at it with him, its usually in the evening.


Donovan1981 wrote:

... One source also used ATT lines on the VDSL. Because when i would do a tracert. It would show a sbcgobal IP address. Its just uverse trying to limit us due to the bandwith 


Would you like a chance to rephrase those statements as to make a cogent argument, because you certainly failed that time.

*The views and opinions expressed on this forum are purely my own. Any product claim, statistic, quote, or other representation about a product or service should be verified with the manufacturer, provider, or party.

Re: AT&T Uverse and Twitch.tv

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Aug 23, 2013 11:03:23 AM
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If he's just watching "captures," or I would assume the saved videos, then I think streaming would be fine. But actual live streams are the problem.

 

I have found, and I don't really know if it's related, but streams with hundreds of viewers are sometimes worse and loading than streams without tens of viewers.

~Izzmo

If he's just watching "captures," or I would assume the saved videos, then I think streaming would be fine. But actual live streams are the problem.

 

I have found, and I don't really know if it's related, but streams with hundreds of viewers are sometimes worse and loading than streams without tens of viewers.

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Aug 23, 2013 2:14:33 PM
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ACE - Expert

Izzmo wrote:

If he's just watching "captures," or I would assume the saved videos, then I think streaming would be fine. But actual live streams are the problem.

 

I have found, and I don't really know if it's related, but streams with hundreds of viewers are sometimes worse and loading than streams without tens of viewers.


Okay... so: explain to me, in simple terms, what the difference is on the AT&T side of the equation between the live stream and the saved videos.  Take your time, I'll wait.

 

He watches both the captures and the live competition videos at different times.


Izzmo wrote:

If he's just watching "captures," or I would assume the saved videos, then I think streaming would be fine. But actual live streams are the problem.

 

I have found, and I don't really know if it's related, but streams with hundreds of viewers are sometimes worse and loading than streams without tens of viewers.


Okay... so: explain to me, in simple terms, what the difference is on the AT&T side of the equation between the live stream and the saved videos.  Take your time, I'll wait.

 

He watches both the captures and the live competition videos at different times.

*The views and opinions expressed on this forum are purely my own. Any product claim, statistic, quote, or other representation about a product or service should be verified with the manufacturer, provider, or party.

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