erazoner's profile

Guru

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802 Messages

Saturday, August 25th, 2012 7:09 PM

Needed: a wireless router with PSP

Can someone recommend a simple wireless router with Power Save Polling (PSP)? I need to install one behind the U-verse RG for the sake of our battery devices.

 

I'm tired of our battery operated devices (iPhones, Ipad, etc.) depleting their batteries when connected to to my 2Wire RG, even when not in use. At home, we have to either plug in our devices or turn off Wi-Fi when not in use, or the constant polling by the RG will still drain the batteries. This was normally not an issue because we often plug in to recharge at the end of the day. (If not, the device will be nearly dead in the morning.)

 

The issue came to head after installing a Nest thermostat, however. The battery on this (wireless) thermostat gets a trickle charge from the HVAC system control currents, but it isn't enougfh to keep up with the constant polling from the RG. I was forced to turn off Wi-Fi for the thermostat to work properly, but the neat advantages of the Nest are lost when doing so.

 

Hence, the need for a router with PSP or PSM. I understand that some routers have this feature, but not properly implemented. Can anyone recommend one?

Master

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5.9K Messages

12 years ago


@erazoner wrote:

Thanks, JefferMC, for stating the issue better than I. This is essentially what the Nest TS folks had confirmed with me (after we checked the stats).

 

With PSP, it takes two to tango. The Nest can't recharge its battery (from the available HVAC low control voltages) and keep its radio alive at the same time, at least not indefinitely, necessitating the power saving scheme. 



Well if your willing to put up with the shortcomings of the Nest, you might want to check with the manufacturer of you furnace, they might have a way to boost the control voltage or use an external power source like the transformer I mentioned earlier. Seems like it would be easier to boost your power source than muck around with your network.

 

 




__________________________________________________________
How can you be in two places at once, when your not anywhere at all?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I really want to become a procrastinator, but I keep putting it off.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are three kinds of people, those that can count, and those that can't.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
“Our great democracies still tend to think that a stupid man is more likely to be honest than a clever man, and our politicians take advantage of this prejudice by pretending to be even more stupid than nature has made them." :Bertrand Russell

New Member

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25.7K Messages

12 years ago

Computer-Joe, all furnaces will output 24v, when you have the C wire connected to the thermostat. There is no way to "boost" the voltage from the furnace to a thermostat, because most out there are designed to send 24v if you have the C wire connected, while other lower end models would not.

As for the Nest, if it was wired without the C, then yes it would only get voltage from when the thermostat is either in Heat or Cool modes. This http://support.nest.com/customer/portal/articles/197951-when-nest-needs-a-common-%22c%22-wire explains why you should connect the thermostat to the C wire.

Keep in mind, any Wifi type thermostat is going to run its battery/batteries down if it is not getting a constant power source.

 

PSP was nothing more than a pipe dream, even when it came out for the short period that it was thought that it would be something that could take off, but it ended up dying as quickly as it was announced.  Why they placed it into the Nest, can only make one think that the designer who also designed the iPhone, wanted to have that option available for those who have PSM or PSP type Access Points, as another feature.

Master

 • 

5.9K Messages

12 years ago


@gregzoll_1 wrote:

Computer-Joe, all furnaces will output 24v, when you have the C wire connected to the thermostat. There is no way to "boost" the voltage from the furnace to a thermostat, because most out there are designed to send 24v if you have the C wire connected, while other lower end models would not.

As for the Nest, if it was wired without the C, then yes it would only get voltage from when the thermostat is either in Heat or Cool modes. This http://support.nest.com/customer/portal/articles/197951-when-nest-needs-a-common-%22c%22-wire explains why you should connect the thermostat to the C wire.

Keep in mind, any Wifi type thermostat is going to run its battery/batteries down if it is not getting a constant power source.

 

PSP was nothing more than a pipe dream, even when it came out for the short period that it was thought that it would be something that could take off, but it ended up dying as quickly as it was announced.  Why they placed it into the Nest, can only make one think that the designer who also designed the iPhone, wanted to have that option available for those who have PSM or PSP type Access Points, as another feature.


Yes, without the common the Nest only charges during a heating or cooling cycles.

 

I guess I should not have used the term furnace specifically. Some radiant (no blower) heating systems with constant pilot use lower voltages because they are meant to work without any external power by using a thermopile which is a bunch of thermocouples in series located in the pilot flame to produce it's control voltage.

 

With solid state furnace controls, although it's thermostat circuit may infact be 24 volts the current can be in the milliamp range because the thermostat circuit does not directly drive the solenoids. so that circuit is likely insufficient to provide enough power to keep the Nest fully charged even if the C or common wire is connected.

 

A basic external HVAC control transformer which can be purchased at most hardware and home improvement stores with a 40 - 60 VA rating should provide enough amperage to keep the batteries charged.


__________________________________________________________
How can you be in two places at once, when your not anywhere at all?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I really want to become a procrastinator, but I keep putting it off.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are three kinds of people, those that can count, and those that can't.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
“Our great democracies still tend to think that a stupid man is more likely to be honest than a clever man, and our politicians take advantage of this prejudice by pretending to be even more stupid than nature has made them." :Bertrand Russell

New Member

 • 

25.7K Messages

12 years ago

RTCOA recommends just going to someplace like Radioshack and getting a plug in 24vac transformer like http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3832489&filterName=Type&filterValue=Over+12V if you are unable to pull or have a wire available to connect to C at the heat/cool equipment in the house.

I think that if the OP chimes back in, we could probably work through getting constant power on the device. As for PSP/PSM type routers, I only found one when I did a search, and it was not highly recommended.

I think at the time, when Intel thought that the Centrino chipset w/Maemo was going to take off, it was a good idea on paper. After it actually got out in the wild, it was found widely by IT groups that it was not going to work as thought it would, as Intel had stated in their Whitepapers and test lab.

Guru

 • 

802 Messages

12 years ago

Actually, I have since learned (after speaking with a LAN expert), that PSP is not implemented in the Nest, but Automated Power Save Delivery (APSD). This is a newer power save management method implemented in most new 802.11 devices under the WMM standard, replacing PSP. Most newer, better quality routers and wireless APs are APSD compliant, as well as smartphones and other battery-operated WiFi devices (not just the iPhone). I regret using "PSP" in the thread title, as it seems to have caused some confusion.

 

Anyway, I do have a C wire, but it is not energized (I only have a single-zone system). I had already asked the Nest TS if I should get the C wire energized and he said it wasn't necessary, that a more elegant soution (for the benefit of my opther battery-operated devices) would be to upgrade to a power save compliant router. That's when I started this thread.

 

So I'm giving kudos to gregzoll and Computer Joe for taking the time to help out. I still haven't decided which route to take, but most likely at this point I'll see about energizing and hooking up the C wire. I don't feel like buying more equipment and tinkering with my network just for the benefit of the thermostat and mobile devices.

Guru

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802 Messages

12 years ago


@Computer-Joe wrote:

If the "C" wire is already in the thermostat cable at the thermostat your half way there. if you can let us know whether your system is self powered (all wires go to furnace control panel) or externally powered (uses a control transfomer) we can let you know how to wire it if your not sure how to do it.


Thanks. My furnace is in the attic, so I'll take a look at the control panel this evening.

Guru

 • 

802 Messages

12 years ago

With the pleasant weather today, I shut off my AC at the panel and ventured into attic to examine the furnace control board. Sure enough, the common (blue) wire was not connected. But another one was, coming from a 2-wire pair. The connections were as follows:

 

                                mystery wire 

                           R                         B

                            |                          |

                            |                          |

                           v                         v

                R         Y          W        COM      G

                ^           ^          ^                        ^

                |            |            |            x          |

                |            |            |             |          |

               R           Y         W           B        G   

                                thermostat wire

 

I connected the blue thermostat wire to the COM terminal, and everything works fine. The Nest battery is also charging.

What I'm curious about is the other wire connected to the board. I coudln't trace it after it enters the wall. Again, I only have a single zone system/ Any clues from those familiar with HVAC?

 

Master

 • 

5.9K Messages

12 years ago


@erazoner wrote:

With the pleasant weather today, I shut off my AC at the panel and ventured into attic to examine the furnace control board. Sure enough, the common (blue) wire was not connected. But another one was, coming from a 2-wire pair. The connections were as follows:

 

                                mystery wire 

                           R                         B

                            |                          |

                            |                          |

                           v                         v

                R         Y          W        COM      G

                ^           ^          ^                        ^

                |            |            |            x          |

                |            |            |             |          |

               R           Y         W           B        G   

                                thermostat wire

 

I connected the blue thermostat wire to the COM terminal, and everything works fine. The Nest battery is also charging.

What I'm curious about is the other wire connected to the board. I coudln't trace it after it enters the wall. Again, I only have a single zone system/ Any clues from those familiar with HVAC?

 



Do you have a heat-pump?

 

 




__________________________________________________________
How can you be in two places at once, when your not anywhere at all?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I really want to become a procrastinator, but I keep putting it off.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are three kinds of people, those that can count, and those that can't.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
“Our great democracies still tend to think that a stupid man is more likely to be honest than a clever man, and our politicians take advantage of this prejudice by pretending to be even more stupid than nature has made them." :Bertrand Russell

Guru

 • 

802 Messages

12 years ago

No heat pump; gas furrnace, electric A/C.

Master

 • 

5.9K Messages

12 years ago


@erazoner wrote:

No heat pump; gas furrnace, electric A/C.



Then those "mystery wires" probably go out to energize the coil on the contactor that starts your compressor/condensor unit.

 

 

 




__________________________________________________________
How can you be in two places at once, when your not anywhere at all?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I really want to become a procrastinator, but I keep putting it off.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are three kinds of people, those that can count, and those that can't.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
“Our great democracies still tend to think that a stupid man is more likely to be honest than a clever man, and our politicians take advantage of this prejudice by pretending to be even more stupid than nature has made them." :Bertrand Russell

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