ATT's unethical business practices [ Edited ]

[Jaredkaragen]

Ok; I will be forthright.

Originally I solely switched to ATT for the wonderful iPhone browsing expirance and unlimited data.

ATT calls a device feature (tethering) a service of theirs. This is incorrect... but I'll continue.

I received a call in march telling me to discontinue tethering, so I made sure I didn't, so to do this I have since ditched my pc alltogether, and only have my phone.

I am a heavy data user; last 2 months about 22gb. I get hoards of large emails (checking every 15 min), and heavily use Netflix, YouTube and high def streaming content. I also have a file downloaded (jailbreak) app to download files and transfer to friends pc's. I also have a modified copy of Bochs running windows 95, and a custom ported network driver to allow the win95 emulation to use the Internet.

ATT called me Monday and said on OCT 1st I am being forced onto a $45/mo tiered data plan because "your data endpoint is on another device". I asked for the proof of these FALSE accusations like any civil legal American would. I was denied every request, and requests to speak with a supervisor.

My only two conclusions: ATT is using heresy to force me out of my contracted plan due to using too much data, or my Bochs emulator is giving a false endpoint which is indeed on the same device.


[Per Guidelines:  Keep it Relevant and Appropriate].


I also expect ATT to delete my post off their forum to try and silence my cold hard truths. This will only confirm that they are making accusations and breaking their contractual agreements illegally.

I can be freely reached here {Personal content removed for your safety}


Anyone else with similar expirances should come forward, and I would like to still see this "evidence" that proves beyond a reasonable doubt that the endpoint was on ANOTHER DEVICE, which has been completely impossible on my end due to a lack of a physical pc/Mac.

What ATT is doing is illegal. It is illegal to accuse someone without providing evidence that is more than heresay.

[Jaredkaragen]

My username at charter dot net

[Matinthehat]

sorry I realize that post is a bit difficult to read due to the formatting.  I seem to have made a mistake during posting it.  If you want to look the information up yourself though the link again is:

http://www.wireless.att.com/learn/articles-resources/wireless-terms.jsp

[Jaredkaragen]

My usage isn't in breach of the terms... As interpreted...

They accuse me specifically:

Your being forced into tiered because the data is ending on -another device-.

They are saying I violated the tethering clause only. Not possible. I don't own a pc, and my phone has no tethering capability...

Completely false; And again, I have yet to be given any evidence....

[Matinthehat]

There is evidence of all your data usage at att.com.  I'm assuming that large chunks of usage would be what at&t would interperet as thethering if you really were not doing it.  You can see these large amounts of usage online. 

On a side note, if you do read the terms and conditions everything they are doing is well within the agreement.  I only say this because of your comment about it being illegal.

[Jaredkaragen]

Wait: so using large chunks is tethering? Using my unlimited plan's data on my device makes it justified for them to switch me?

It's illegal to break the other party's contractual terms if they don't provide proof....


You can't tell someone they have been making overseas calls, and automatically switch their plan (if not allowed on current) unless they provide proof (numbers called and duration/time). The same Goes in many similar situations under contract. If you expect me to blindly accept the accusation stated here word for word "your data endpoint was on another device" (call recorded) knowing it's not true... Is nuts.

The action by the company must be justified; and they aren't showing any justification. Just accusations.

In short the use of a data plan which I originally agreed to "unlimited data", before tethering was even a clause in my original agreement, is frowned upon and not allowed.... So why offer an unlimited plan to begin with?

As soon as a suit is filed, a motion for discovery is simple, and will force the lack of evidence of "endpoint is on another device".... Which I seriously doubt proves it. Data was never "retransmitted" only taken in from the radio into the device. Not a transfer between devices. The suit will be for just that, proof of it ending up on another device. Which is the basis of them breaking contract.

I have always used my data on my phone only.

And when I've been using data like this for 2+years, why now is it being forced? I have never had a problem with it, until now.

[Jaredkaragen]

If they charge me a cancellation fee, it's on, if they wave charges and let me on my way, [Per Guidelines:  Keep it Relevant and Appropriate].

I am civil, when people are civil to me.

[nitrew.m]

There are a lot of things that AT&T classifies as tethering that you might not think. Even if you don't own a computer you can tether. For instance, listening to pandora through your car stereo or home speakers... is tethering. Or watching Netflix on an external display (not 'computer', just a display)... is tethering.

[Jaredkaragen]

At the bottom of the bold section, they gave a summary:

This means, by way of example only, that checking email, surfing the Internet, downloading legally acquired songs, and/or visiting corporate intranets is permitted, but downloading movies using P2P file sharing services, redirecting television signals for viewing on Personal Computers, web broadcasting, and/or for the operation of servers, telemetry devices and/or Supervisory Control and Data Acquisition devices is prohibited. Furthermore, plans (unless specifically designated for tethering usage) cannot be used for any applications that tether the device (through use of, including without limitation, connection kits, other phone/smartphone to computer accessories, BLUETOOTH® or any other wireless technology) to Personal Computers (including without limitation, laptops), or other equipment for any purpose.

I used it as a general purpose mobile Internet device. I watch videos (YouTube/Netflix/hulu online), and again, check my email a ton, in which I get an extraordinarily large amount, in some also are large files that get resent to people who néed them, or PDF files for me to review.

I have read all of it. A few times now...

My phone web browser replaced my last sidekicks browser. I don't see any convincing evidence yet of their specific reason they are changing my plan. This is my main complaint.

I appreciate the feedback, it makes me understand the different avenues/perspectives/interpretations on the current specific situation.

I understand other terms... And agree/abide where it's understood by the laymen. Anything not in laymens terms is only expected to be legally agreed to by a person proficient/degreed in contractual law.... So it legally can be ignored by the laymen.

[wingrider01 ACE - Geek]

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Jaredkaragen wrote:
My usage isn't in breach of the terms... As interpreted...

They accuse me specifically:

Your being forced into tiered because the data is ending on -another device-.

They are saying I violated the tethering clause only. Not possible. I don't own a pc, and my phone has no tethering capability...

Completely false; And again, I have yet to be given any evidence....

---

If you are using 22GB a month theyn you are violating the Fair Use policy, this policy is in effect at all carriers. It has been documented that the upper 5 percent of grand fathered unlimited data users will be throttled heavily until the end of their billing period, after that the throttling will be lifted until the data usage is excesive again. The Fair Use policy has always been in the tems of service, this type of policy is written in to all carriers terms of servic, ATT, Verizon, Sprint, even the lowly Cricket has it (cricket enforces it 100 percent)

can only speculate that since you where flagged for tethering against the terms the first time, that flag is still there and when you utilize a large amount of data the warning indicator is tripped again. Unfortunately bottom line, tethering or exceeding the fair use policy the carrier has the right to enforce it. This is also documented

You where not "singled out" this is happening in general all users that violate either the tethering clause or the fair use clause, not just you. 

[Jaredkaragen]

I can understand being throttled, not being accused of something and having action taken against a false accusation.

My whole point of this is the specific accusation and actions being taken.

I could deal with the throttling, and understand that portion of fair use. The actions they are taking aren't contractually legal. And I didn't violate the fair use terms.

I could understand if they did it for a different specific reason, but they were specific in telling me it was because the endpoint was on another device. Which is completely false. Which is the reason i am here, and the reason that I am talking to lawyers, who agree with me and all pertinent evidence presented, as well as the lack of evidence that I rightfully deserve.

A motion for discovery will force whatever evidence they may think they have.


If they would have originally stated their intent (when renewing my contract) to let me keep my unlimited plan and not be able to use it as such when I used it as such (as I always have) then I would have dropped them and moved to another carrier as I am doing now.... I wouldn't be talking to lawyers, and be upset that my legal rights to information have been denied by a corporate big brother.

Again, I say this, because i should not have to be going through this. If they had provided me with the evidence, I could research it myself and find the root of the problem. (in which I am asking for evidence towards the specific allogations, not other subclauses that were never mentioned as reason for the change).


Good input, but not on par with the false allegations said/used towards me.


And they would have to prove local use cojestion for my to have breached the fair use policy. The location where I use my phone the most has maybe 15-20 houses/businesses/residences within the one mile radius of typical radio towers. They would have to have all of those residents on their service, trying to access the network simultaneously for there to even begin to be more than a minor network slowdown.

[Jambino]

From your Wireless Customer Agreement: "Accordingly, AT&T reserves the right to (i) deny, disconnect, modify and/or terminate Service, without notice, to anyone it believes is using the Service in any manner prohibited or whose usage adversely impacts its wireless network or service levels or hinders access to its wireless network, including without limitation, after a significant period of inactivity or after sessions of excessive usage and (ii) otherwise protect its wireless network from harm, compromised capacity or degradation in performance, which may impact legitimate data flows."

In laymens terms... att has the right to change your plan if they "believe" your usage is negatively impacting their network. They do not have to prove anything. They didn't even have to notify you. So the reason they gave you doesn't match up, it doesn't matter. The bottom line is they are changing your data plan because you use too much data. It may be unethical but it's not illegal.

You wrote... "I understand other terms... And agree/abide where it's understood by the laymen. Anything not in laymens terms is only expected to be legally agreed to by a person proficient/degreed in contractual law.... So it legally can be ignored by the laymen." Lol that's a good one... Good luck on your case.

[Jaredkaragen]

Correct. Nowhere in the contract is a clause giving right to withold the information proving breech of contract, and that they are exempt from burden of truth.

Until they give it, I am not breaking the contract (reasonable proof via heresay is given), and the company is refusing to provide proof. "Reason enough it is" is not proof and I am sure the court will require proof of breech of contract for the specific reason they specified when on the phone with me.

People keep overlooking the simple fact that they are making accusations without proof. Specific accusations.

Sorry, but ATT isn't god, and they can't act like it by breaking the terms of
A contract and not providing evidence ad to why. Their word won't hold up in court. This is why their actions are illegal. Until they provide evidence they are presumed to be breaking contract by the lamen. They must have clear justification to break or change the contract, as must I. So again, i ask for specific evidence on how I broke the specific tethering clause as I was told word for word that "the endpoint was on another device" in which that breeched a specific portion of the tethering clause in the contract.

They won't provide it because they think they don't have to. Thus if no evidence is given, they have no reason legally to breech my contract.


These are simple facets of contract law that any dumm-dumm can see. I wonder why ATT ignores this?

Also, your translation is lamens, correct. The contract is not.

Fair and simple.

So try not to argue useless points. Stay on topic,

Specifically,

ATT made specific allogations and changed my contract. I know the allegations to be false and untrue. I have stated clear evidence in this manner. They have come nowhere close.

They were specific in the phonecall (recorded).

The rest of the contract aside; they specifically attacked me. I am specifically defending myself.

What gives them the right to make a legal accusation and break contract WITHOUT PROViDING the REQUIRED legal EVIDENCE?

So again... Nobody has anything relevant to say about their specific allogations and lack of legal evidence?

Probably cause I'm right, and they will try and hide behind other clauses in the contract to avoid their misalligations. I have consulted with many lawyers that agree with the fact they have no right to withold evidence like this.

[jamileh]

If you'd like to speak to someone who can review your account and discussion your options, please send me a private message with your name, account number, phone number and the best time to contact you.

Please refrain from discussing legal activity on our forums as it violates our community guidelines. 

Thanks, 

~jam

[Jaredkaragen]

My problem is i spoke directly with the account manager about this and was only repeated the sentence ending in "your data endpoint was on another device", when I asked for any pertinent info I was refused and told I was not allowed to have this info.

I bring it here openly so others can see my customer service nightmare, and I do not want a repeat of an hour on hold only to have the same 5 sentences repeated to me.

As well, I want to hear insights from other customers and similar expirances, as well as show the problems to potential customers of yours.

[jamileh]

Understood. 

My offer stands when and if you'd like to take advantage of it. 

[hme83 ACE - Professor]

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Jaredkaragen wrote:
My problem is i spoke directly with the account manager about this and was only repeated the sentence ending in "your data endpoint was on another device", when I asked for any pertinent info I was refused and told I was not allowed to have this info.

I bring it here openly so others can see my customer service nightmare, and I do not want a repeat of an hour on hold only to have the same 5 sentences repeated to me.

As well, I want to hear insights from other customers and similar expirances, as well as show the problems to potential customers of yours.

---

While I'm somewhat sympathetic to your primary point, if you are using 22GB/month, you are potentially negatively impacting my fair use of the network, as far as I'm concerned/my at&t 3G data experience goes.

I'm not clear though re: one of your earlier posts in the thread - are they allowing you to exit the contract without an ETF?  If so, I don't really see where you have much of a leg to stand on - as pointed out previously, their contract allows them to change anything at any point in time.  The only recourse it gives the consumer is that if the terms of service are substantially altered during contract term, you won't be charged an ETF if you choose to terminate the agreement.

[riven144]

We all really need a serious reality check. Would you all be okay with ATT charging for each  computer in your house hooked up to their DSL line via a router? It's the same thing. Don't be fooled, it's all about greed.

Back in the day, we paid $15/mo for our phone and watched TV for free. We hooked our computer to our phones to get online without any "tethering" fee. If we used an ATM and had only $19.00, the machine would politely say "Insufficient funds".

Now we pay $100+/mo for our phones, extra if we dare hook it up to our computer. We pay as much as $200/mo for cable to get 1000 channels of which we watch maybe a half dozen. We pay $33 if we pulled out $20.00 when we only had $19.00.

It took an act of Congress to stop the banks from charging that fee. They also came down on the cable companies for charging extra for each TV in the house using that cable line. Why stop them? Because it's "unethical business practices". Terms of Service is just words on paper. Just because they wrote it, does mean they should have. How many customers even read through that stuff? They know, virtually no one does. That works well for them.

Case in point: 

I give my iPhone to my daughter and plugged in her SIM card and it works perfectly. Four days later, ATT adds a data plan to the line. I don't want my daughter to have a data plan. I'm told it's policy. In fact, I'm told the policy is their to protect me from excessive Media.net fees that would be incurred should my daughter use any data services. Really? Seriously? If ATT wanted to protect me, they would have provided the means to disable any data use in the first place. But hey, they make a truck load of money protecting me their way. That is what it's about. Greed. Period. And it most assuredly is "unethical" and I hope and pray an act of Congress stops this deplorable behavior sooner than later. 

We all need a serious reality check. As for me, I've already cut off cable TV, switched my daughters phone back to her old phone, and will be canceling my service with ATT just as soon as my contract is up. 

[Edited to comply with Guidelines]

[brianstoiber]

" I also have a modified copy of Bochs running windows 95, and a custom ported network driver to allow the win95 emulation to use the Internet."

Just want to through out there that if this is most likely the reason they are claiming you are teathering. Although it is not a physical device, there is probably a different APN being sent from Windows 95 which is appearing to them that it is a different device.