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Posted Aug 25, 2012
12:09:27 PM
Needed: a wireless router with PSP

Can someone recommend a simple wireless router with Power Save Polling (PSP)? I need to install one behind the U-verse RG for the sake of our battery devices.

 

I'm tired of our battery operated devices (iPhones, Ipad, etc.) depleting their batteries when connected to to my 2Wire RG, even when not in use. At home, we have to either plug in our devices or turn off Wi-Fi when not in use, or the constant polling by the RG will still drain the batteries. This was normally not an issue because we often plug in to recharge at the end of the day. (If not, the device will be nearly dead in the morning.)

 

The issue came to head after installing a Nest thermostat, however. The battery on this (wireless) thermostat gets a trickle charge from the HVAC system control currents, but it isn't enougfh to keep up with the constant polling from the RG. I was forced to turn off Wi-Fi for the thermostat to work properly, but the neat advantages of the Nest are lost when doing so.

 

Hence, the need for a router with PSP or PSM. I understand that some routers have this feature, but not properly implemented. Can anyone recommend one?

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Aug 28, 2012 5:57:39 AM
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ACE - Master

erazoner wrote:

Actually, I have since learned (after speaking with a LAN expert), that PSP is not implemented in the Nest, but Automated Power Save Delivery (APSD). This is a newer power save management method implemented in most new 802.11 devices under the WMM standard, replacing PSP. Most newer, better quality routers and wireless APs are APSD compliant, as well as smartphones and other battery-operated WiFi devices (not just the iPhone). I regret using "PSP" in the thread title, as it seems to have caused some confusion.

 

Anyway, I do have a C wire, but it is not energized (I only have a single-zone system). I had already asked the Nest TS if I should get the C wire energized and he said it wasn't necessary, that a more elegant soution (for the benefit of my opther battery-operated devices) would be to upgrade to a power save compliant router. That's when I started this thread.

 

So I'm giving kudos to gregzoll and Computer Joe for taking the time to help out. I still haven't decided which route to take, but most likely at this point I'll see about energizing and hooking up the C wire. I don't feel like buying more equipment and tinkering with my network just for the benefit of the thermostat and mobile devices.



If the "C" wire is already in the thermostat cable at the thermostat your half way there. if you can let us know whether your system is self powered (all wires go to furnace control panel) or externally powered (uses a control transfomer) we can let you know how to wire it if your not sure how to do it.

 

 




__________________________________________________________
How can you be in two places at once, when your not anywhere at all?
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I really want to become a procrastinator, but I keep putting it off.
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There are three kinds of people, those that can count, and those that can't.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
“Our great democracies still tend to think that a stupid man is more likely to be honest than a clever man, and our politicians take advantage of this prejudice by pretending to be even more stupid than nature has made them." :Bertrand Russell

*The views and opinions expressed on this forum are purely my own. Any product claim, statistic, quote, or other representation about a product or service should be verified with the manufacturer, provider, or party.
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Needed: a wireless router with PSP

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Aug 25, 2012 12:35:01 PM
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Professor
Edited by gregzoll_1 on Aug 25, 2012 at 12:40:24 PM

It is not so much that the router is causing the battery drain, it is leaving the devices on when not in use, that causes them to drain their battery.

My wife & I tend to either plug in our phones at night if we leave them on, or turn the device completely off when not using it for a long period.

Keep in mind, something like a iPhone is going to use its battery due to it will ping the cell network more than it will be pinging the wifi network. But also check the settings for email, calendar updates, etc that you have not got the idevices set to "Push" for updates, but set more for a Fetch of data say every 30 min's to one hour, for checking email, calendar, etc.

Your battery life will last longer if not set for "Push", but a manual Fetch.  Also keep in mind that a feature such as PSP or PSM, only works with those devices that are compatible with that feature.

 

I would say also, that sounds like your Nest is not set up properly.  You may want to go back and double check the setup on it, due to it would have nothing to do with the other devices draining, which is a unrelated matter.  The Nest should poll to update the servers at a set period, not continously.  If it is flooding the RG, again double check its settings.  I know that it searchs out to see if a body is going by, which can cause it to keep waking up, if in a busy area of the house, not in a hallway where it would just sense the ambiant room temp.

________________________________________________________________

"Ren: Now listen, Cadet. I've got a job for you. See this button? Don't touch it! It's the History Eraser button, you fool!

Stimpy: So what'll happen?

Ren: That's just it. We don't know. Maybe something bad, maybe something good. I guess we'll never know, 'cause you're going to guard it. You won't touch it, will you?"
________________________________________________________________

Re: Needed: a wireless router with PSP

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Aug 25, 2012 5:03:36 PM
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The Nest is set up properly. It does not poll constantly, but does respond to polls from the RG. I can change the display option (which I have done), but that's it.

 

Re your iPhone tip: if I dsable Wi-Fi and leave the phone on and unplugged, it only loses 2-4% of battery charge overnight. When I leave Wi-Fi on, it drops 40% or more. 

 

The Nest is compatible with PSM routers. In fact, they recommend one. That's why I asked.

Re: Needed: a wireless router with PSP

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Aug 25, 2012 5:44:06 PM
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Professor
Edited by gregzoll_1 on Aug 25, 2012 at 5:51:12 PM

The nest does not Poll the RG, it polls the servers that it connects to. As for the iPhones, they also poll servers, not the RG. Yes, if you turn on WiFi, the phone will use battery, because it connects constantly to the wireless A/P that it is connecting to, unlike when it is on a cellular network, a Cellphone/Smartphone will go to sleep until it needs to wake up and check for email or tell the tower it is on the network.

The Nest was designed by the same guy that designed the iPhone, so yes if you want to layer another router behind the RG, you can, but remember that if you are not going to use the Wireless function of the RG, turn it off. But remember that if you use the "Connected Devices" function of Uverse, to use either the BuddyTV or UVerse app, to control the Uverse receiver, it will not work on a third party router.

PSM/PSP is one of those things that never took off, due to the Centrino chipset died out, along with Maemo shortly after they came out. Personally something like the Nest, I would not want the router to go into power saving mode, due to most device were found to have problems waking back up and could not connect back with the router when the radio came back online.

If you are at home, not using the iPad, shut it down. As for the iPhones, leave them plugged in at night if they are your main communications. My wife plugs hers in at night, and when she gets up, unplugs it. At work I have to plug my iPhone in, because I do not get a signal, so the phone is constantly trying to ping a tower with very little signal avail, because the building I work in is a Faraday cage.

 

Also, see this story from 2008 http://www.networkworld.com/research/2008/051208-wireless-power-savings.html the research found that PSM produced worst results, than the manufacturers expected.  That is one of many reasons why we still do not see this widely implemented, and it is only really a Wireless-N device capable only function.

 

Also, if you did not find this thread http://linksys.lithium.com/t5/Wireless-Routers/Nest-Thermostat-and-Linksys-E4200-and-Power-Save-Feat... it can also give you insight into problems with the Nest and Power Saving mode.

________________________________________________________________

"Ren: Now listen, Cadet. I've got a job for you. See this button? Don't touch it! It's the History Eraser button, you fool!

Stimpy: So what'll happen?

Ren: That's just it. We don't know. Maybe something bad, maybe something good. I guess we'll never know, 'cause you're going to guard it. You won't touch it, will you?"
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Re: Needed: a wireless router with PSP

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Aug 25, 2012 6:04:31 PM
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Professor
I should also add, that Apple has not gotten the battery problem fixed with the last update of iOS 5.x.x. Supposedly that may or may not be fixed with iOS 6.x.x, but time will only tell.
________________________________________________________________

"Ren: Now listen, Cadet. I've got a job for you. See this button? Don't touch it! It's the History Eraser button, you fool!

Stimpy: So what'll happen?

Ren: That's just it. We don't know. Maybe something bad, maybe something good. I guess we'll never know, 'cause you're going to guard it. You won't touch it, will you?"
________________________________________________________________

Re: Needed: a wireless router with PSP

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Aug 25, 2012 7:19:26 PM
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Also, if you did not find this thread http://linksys.lithium.com/t5/Wireless-Routers/Nest-Thermostat-and-Linksys-E4200-and-Power-Save-Feat... it can also give you insight into problems with the Nest and Power Saving mode.


That post was no help at all, since the poster seemd to have the problem exactly backwards, and the first responder recognized it as such. Having PSM implemented on a router does not prevent the Nest from "going to sleep" but actually leaves it undisturbed until it wants to connect to a server. And I never claimed that the Nest was polling the router, but vice versa. The Nest is an unagressive poller; it was designed that way to save energy. But few routers (including the 2Wire) have any energy-saving features, often for perfectly good reasons (e.g.,throughput).

 

Again, thanks for your tips on iPhone and iPad, I am well aware of them and already use the workarounds you suggested. I even turned off Push and set the fetch intervals appropriately. I'm even more conservative while traveling, when I don't know where or when I'll find a power outlet. I'm just annoyed that I have to do the same at home because of the constanly aware RG.

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Aug 26, 2012 11:30:27 AM
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Professor
Again, has nothing to do with the RG.
________________________________________________________________

"Ren: Now listen, Cadet. I've got a job for you. See this button? Don't touch it! It's the History Eraser button, you fool!

Stimpy: So what'll happen?

Ren: That's just it. We don't know. Maybe something bad, maybe something good. I guess we'll never know, 'cause you're going to guard it. You won't touch it, will you?"
________________________________________________________________

Re: Needed: a wireless router with PSP

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Aug 27, 2012 6:42:31 AM
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ACE - Master
Edited by JefferMC on Aug 27, 2012 at 6:43:32 AM

If I may...

 

I think the point here is that two WiFi devices that "believe" they have a connection poll each other periodically to be sure they still have that connection.  This is a rather low level network behavior in the physical layer of the network.  Apparently the NEST can signal a PSP compliant Wireless AP/Router that it wants to save power by turning off its radio for a while and won't be responding but is still there.  A non-PSP compliant router will not understand this message and won't confirm to the NEST that this is okay, which means the NEST probably won't turn its radio off, thus draining the battery.

 

As the RG is a non-PSP complaint router, it would therefore not allow the NEST to save its battery.

 

*The views and opinions expressed on this forum are purely my own. Any product claim, statistic, quote, or other representation about a product or service should be verified with the manufacturer, provider, or party.

Re: Needed: a wireless router with PSP

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Aug 27, 2012 7:04:09 AM
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ACE - Master
Edited by Computer-Joe on Aug 27, 2012 at 7:06:34 AM

What might also be the problem is that the Nest thermostat can not charge it's battery faster than it is depleted which might be addressed if the Nest has a FW update . Might want to check if there are updates available. The other issue that could affect charge rate is older HVAC systems normally ran off an external 120VAC to 24VAC transformer for the control circuit, which would have had the voltage and current available to provide a higher charge rate for the Nest, but with newer furnaces the control power comes from the solid state controls on the furnace itself which is normally a lower voltage and current. Thus your furnace may not be providing enough juice for the charge circuit in the Nest to compensate for the drain of it's wireless radio.

 

 The power saving features on the Nest should be an option, not a requirement. if that is not the case I would take it back as it was poorly engineered.




__________________________________________________________
How can you be in two places at once, when your not anywhere at all?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I really want to become a procrastinator, but I keep putting it off.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are three kinds of people, those that can count, and those that can't.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
“Our great democracies still tend to think that a stupid man is more likely to be honest than a clever man, and our politicians take advantage of this prejudice by pretending to be even more stupid than nature has made them." :Bertrand Russell

                               neon_sign.jpg

*The views and opinions expressed on this forum are purely my own. Any product claim, statistic, quote, or other representation about a product or service should be verified with the manufacturer, provider, or party.

Re: Needed: a wireless router with PSP

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Aug 27, 2012 2:04:14 PM
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Thanks, JefferMC, for stating the issue better than I. This is essentially what the Nest TS folks had confirmed with me (after we checked the stats).

 

With PSP, it takes two to tango. The Nest can't recharge its battery (from the available HVAC low control voltages) and keep its radio alive at the same time, at least not indefinitely, necessitating the power saving scheme. 

Re: Needed: a wireless router with PSP

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Aug 27, 2012 4:36:09 PM
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ACE - Master

erazoner wrote:

Thanks, JefferMC, for stating the issue better than I. This is essentially what the Nest TS folks had confirmed with me (after we checked the stats).

 

With PSP, it takes two to tango. The Nest can't recharge its battery (from the available HVAC low control voltages) and keep its radio alive at the same time, at least not indefinitely, necessitating the power saving scheme. 



Well if your willing to put up with the shortcomings of the Nest, you might want to check with the manufacturer of you furnace, they might have a way to boost the control voltage or use an external power source like the transformer I mentioned earlier. Seems like it would be easier to boost your power source than muck around with your network.

 

 




__________________________________________________________
How can you be in two places at once, when your not anywhere at all?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I really want to become a procrastinator, but I keep putting it off.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are three kinds of people, those that can count, and those that can't.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
“Our great democracies still tend to think that a stupid man is more likely to be honest than a clever man, and our politicians take advantage of this prejudice by pretending to be even more stupid than nature has made them." :Bertrand Russell

                               neon_sign.jpg

*The views and opinions expressed on this forum are purely my own. Any product claim, statistic, quote, or other representation about a product or service should be verified with the manufacturer, provider, or party.

Re: Needed: a wireless router with PSP

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Aug 27, 2012 6:54:42 PM
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Professor
Edited by gregzoll_1 on Aug 27, 2012 at 6:56:37 PM

Computer-Joe, all furnaces will output 24v, when you have the C wire connected to the thermostat. There is no way to "boost" the voltage from the furnace to a thermostat, because most out there are designed to send 24v if you have the C wire connected, while other lower end models would not.

As for the Nest, if it was wired without the C, then yes it would only get voltage from when the thermostat is either in Heat or Cool modes. This http://support.nest.com/customer/portal/articles/197951-when-nest-needs-a-common-%22c%22-wire explains why you should connect the thermostat to the C wire.

Keep in mind, any Wifi type thermostat is going to run its battery/batteries down if it is not getting a constant power source.

 

PSP was nothing more than a pipe dream, even when it came out for the short period that it was thought that it would be something that could take off, but it ended up dying as quickly as it was announced.  Why they placed it into the Nest, can only make one think that the designer who also designed the iPhone, wanted to have that option available for those who have PSM or PSP type Access Points, as another feature.

________________________________________________________________

"Ren: Now listen, Cadet. I've got a job for you. See this button? Don't touch it! It's the History Eraser button, you fool!

Stimpy: So what'll happen?

Ren: That's just it. We don't know. Maybe something bad, maybe something good. I guess we'll never know, 'cause you're going to guard it. You won't touch it, will you?"
________________________________________________________________

Re: Needed: a wireless router with PSP

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Aug 28, 2012 4:57:56 AM
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ACE - Master
Edited by Computer-Joe on Aug 28, 2012 at 5:00:40 AM

gregzoll_1 wrote:

Computer-Joe, all furnaces will output 24v, when you have the C wire connected to the thermostat. There is no way to "boost" the voltage from the furnace to a thermostat, because most out there are designed to send 24v if you have the C wire connected, while other lower end models would not.

As for the Nest, if it was wired without the C, then yes it would only get voltage from when the thermostat is either in Heat or Cool modes. This http://support.nest.com/customer/portal/articles/197951-when-nest-needs-a-common-%22c%22-wire explains why you should connect the thermostat to the C wire.

Keep in mind, any Wifi type thermostat is going to run its battery/batteries down if it is not getting a constant power source.

 

PSP was nothing more than a pipe dream, even when it came out for the short period that it was thought that it would be something that could take off, but it ended up dying as quickly as it was announced.  Why they placed it into the Nest, can only make one think that the designer who also designed the iPhone, wanted to have that option available for those who have PSM or PSP type Access Points, as another feature.


Yes, without the common the Nest only charges during a heating or cooling cycles.

 

I guess I should not have used the term furnace specifically. Some radiant (no blower) heating systems with constant pilot use lower voltages because they are meant to work without any external power by using a thermopile which is a bunch of thermocouples in series located in the pilot flame to produce it's control voltage.

 

With solid state furnace controls, although it's thermostat circuit may infact be 24 volts the current can be in the milliamp range because the thermostat circuit does not directly drive the solenoids. so that circuit is likely insufficient to provide enough power to keep the Nest fully charged even if the C or common wire is connected.

 

A basic external HVAC control transformer which can be purchased at most hardware and home improvement stores with a 40 - 60 VA rating should provide enough amperage to keep the batteries charged.


__________________________________________________________
How can you be in two places at once, when your not anywhere at all?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I really want to become a procrastinator, but I keep putting it off.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are three kinds of people, those that can count, and those that can't.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
“Our great democracies still tend to think that a stupid man is more likely to be honest than a clever man, and our politicians take advantage of this prejudice by pretending to be even more stupid than nature has made them." :Bertrand Russell

                               neon_sign.jpg

*The views and opinions expressed on this forum are purely my own. Any product claim, statistic, quote, or other representation about a product or service should be verified with the manufacturer, provider, or party.

Re: Needed: a wireless router with PSP

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Aug 28, 2012 5:37:46 AM
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Professor
RTCOA recommends just going to someplace like Radioshack and getting a plug in 24vac transformer like http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3832489&filterName=Type&filterValue=Over+12V if you are unable to pull or have a wire available to connect to C at the heat/cool equipment in the house.

I think that if the OP chimes back in, we could probably work through getting constant power on the device. As for PSP/PSM type routers, I only found one when I did a search, and it was not highly recommended.

I think at the time, when Intel thought that the Centrino chipset w/Maemo was going to take off, it was a good idea on paper. After it actually got out in the wild, it was found widely by IT groups that it was not going to work as thought it would, as Intel had stated in their Whitepapers and test lab.
________________________________________________________________

"Ren: Now listen, Cadet. I've got a job for you. See this button? Don't touch it! It's the History Eraser button, you fool!

Stimpy: So what'll happen?

Ren: That's just it. We don't know. Maybe something bad, maybe something good. I guess we'll never know, 'cause you're going to guard it. You won't touch it, will you?"
________________________________________________________________

Re: Needed: a wireless router with PSP

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Aug 28, 2012 5:38:03 AM
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Actually, I have since learned (after speaking with a LAN expert), that PSP is not implemented in the Nest, but Automated Power Save Delivery (APSD). This is a newer power save management method implemented in most new 802.11 devices under the WMM standard, replacing PSP. Most newer, better quality routers and wireless APs are APSD compliant, as well as smartphones and other battery-operated WiFi devices (not just the iPhone). I regret using "PSP" in the thread title, as it seems to have caused some confusion.

 

Anyway, I do have a C wire, but it is not energized (I only have a single-zone system). I had already asked the Nest TS if I should get the C wire energized and he said it wasn't necessary, that a more elegant soution (for the benefit of my opther battery-operated devices) would be to upgrade to a power save compliant router. That's when I started this thread.

 

So I'm giving kudos to gregzoll and Computer Joe for taking the time to help out. I still haven't decided which route to take, but most likely at this point I'll see about energizing and hooking up the C wire. I don't feel like buying more equipment and tinkering with my network just for the benefit of the thermostat and mobile devices.

Re: Needed: a wireless router with PSP

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Aug 28, 2012 5:57:39 AM
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ACE - Master

erazoner wrote:

Actually, I have since learned (after speaking with a LAN expert), that PSP is not implemented in the Nest, but Automated Power Save Delivery (APSD). This is a newer power save management method implemented in most new 802.11 devices under the WMM standard, replacing PSP. Most newer, better quality routers and wireless APs are APSD compliant, as well as smartphones and other battery-operated WiFi devices (not just the iPhone). I regret using "PSP" in the thread title, as it seems to have caused some confusion.

 

Anyway, I do have a C wire, but it is not energized (I only have a single-zone system). I had already asked the Nest TS if I should get the C wire energized and he said it wasn't necessary, that a more elegant soution (for the benefit of my opther battery-operated devices) would be to upgrade to a power save compliant router. That's when I started this thread.

 

So I'm giving kudos to gregzoll and Computer Joe for taking the time to help out. I still haven't decided which route to take, but most likely at this point I'll see about energizing and hooking up the C wire. I don't feel like buying more equipment and tinkering with my network just for the benefit of the thermostat and mobile devices.



If the "C" wire is already in the thermostat cable at the thermostat your half way there. if you can let us know whether your system is self powered (all wires go to furnace control panel) or externally powered (uses a control transfomer) we can let you know how to wire it if your not sure how to do it.

 

 




__________________________________________________________
How can you be in two places at once, when your not anywhere at all?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I really want to become a procrastinator, but I keep putting it off.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are three kinds of people, those that can count, and those that can't.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
“Our great democracies still tend to think that a stupid man is more likely to be honest than a clever man, and our politicians take advantage of this prejudice by pretending to be even more stupid than nature has made them." :Bertrand Russell

                               neon_sign.jpg

*The views and opinions expressed on this forum are purely my own. Any product claim, statistic, quote, or other representation about a product or service should be verified with the manufacturer, provider, or party.

Re: Needed: a wireless router with PSP

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Aug 28, 2012 9:45:47 AM
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Computer-Joe wrote:

If the "C" wire is already in the thermostat cable at the thermostat your half way there. if you can let us know whether your system is self powered (all wires go to furnace control panel) or externally powered (uses a control transfomer) we can let you know how to wire it if your not sure how to do it.


Thanks. My furnace is in the attic, so I'll take a look at the control panel this evening.

Re: Needed: a wireless router with PSP

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Sep 1, 2012 10:52:46 AM
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With the pleasant weather today, I shut off my AC at the panel and ventured into attic to examine the furnace control board. Sure enough, the common (blue) wire was not connected. But another one was, coming from a 2-wire pair. The connections were as follows:

 

                                mystery wire 

                           R                         B

                            |                          |

                            |                          |

                           v                         v

                R         Y          W        COM      G

                ^           ^          ^                        ^

                |            |            |            x          |

                |            |            |             |          |

               R           Y         W           B        G   

                                thermostat wire

 

I connected the blue thermostat wire to the COM terminal, and everything works fine. The Nest battery is also charging.

What I'm curious about is the other wire connected to the board. I coudln't trace it after it enters the wall. Again, I only have a single zone system/ Any clues from those familiar with HVAC?

 

Re: Needed: a wireless router with PSP

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Sep 1, 2012 11:20:59 AM
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ACE - Master

erazoner wrote:

With the pleasant weather today, I shut off my AC at the panel and ventured into attic to examine the furnace control board. Sure enough, the common (blue) wire was not connected. But another one was, coming from a 2-wire pair. The connections were as follows:

 

                                mystery wire 

                           R                         B

                            |                          |

                            |                          |

                           v                         v

                R         Y          W        COM      G

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                                thermostat wire

 

I connected the blue thermostat wire to the COM terminal, and everything works fine. The Nest battery is also charging.

What I'm curious about is the other wire connected to the board. I coudln't trace it after it enters the wall. Again, I only have a single zone system/ Any clues from those familiar with HVAC?

 



Do you have a heat-pump?

 

 




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Re: Needed: a wireless router with PSP

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Sep 1, 2012 11:45:00 AM
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Guru

No heat pump; gas furrnace, electric A/C.

Re: Needed: a wireless router with PSP

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Sep 1, 2012 11:54:07 AM
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ACE - Master

erazoner wrote:

No heat pump; gas furrnace, electric A/C.



Then those "mystery wires" probably go out to energize the coil on the contactor that starts your compressor/condensor unit.

 

 

 




__________________________________________________________
How can you be in two places at once, when your not anywhere at all?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I really want to become a procrastinator, but I keep putting it off.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are three kinds of people, those that can count, and those that can't.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
“Our great democracies still tend to think that a stupid man is more likely to be honest than a clever man, and our politicians take advantage of this prejudice by pretending to be even more stupid than nature has made them." :Bertrand Russell

                               neon_sign.jpg

*The views and opinions expressed on this forum are purely my own. Any product claim, statistic, quote, or other representation about a product or service should be verified with the manufacturer, provider, or party.

Re: Needed: a wireless router with PSP

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