ATT is clueless on HDMI "No Signal" solution

[SomeJoe7777 ACE - Geek]

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mibrnsurg wrote:

The problem is it's a mismatch between the STB and TV.  If the TV only has 1.2, it can not have the capabilities of 1.3a (1.3, 1.3a and 1.3b are similar) features which were unknown when 1.2 was introduced and are required for HDCP. All that HDMI org message means is if you take a 1.2 cable out of a current situation and replace it w/1.3a cable, it will work the same as before.  As anelson wrote, Samsung told him his TV only has the capabilities of 1.2, so HDCP won't work on his television and has to use component (analog) cables.  And it really is a crapshoot as another poster said his 2003 Samsung handles HDMI flawlessly, sometimes there is no rhyme or reason as to which will or won't work.  It's too bad as my HDMI signal is much better than the component signal.

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It's not a version mismatch.  All versions of HDMI are supposed to be fully compatible with each other as far as their common capabilities are concerned.

HDCP is fully supported in every version of HDMI, and is required to be supported by the display device or the U-Verse STB will not output a signal.

My belief is that the HDMI problems with U-Verse stem from a specification that was updated in version 1.2, which is CEC (consumer electronics control).  This is a feature of HDMI whereby the devices that are connected together can communicate with each other and give each other simple commands.  For instance, when you turn on your TV, the TV can send a CEC power on signal to the STB and automatically turn it on as well.

I believe the U-Verse STBs are not implementing CEC correctly (or at least are implementing it in a way that is incompatible with a lot of devices), and this feature is interfering with proper handshaking with devices that have certain implementations of it.   CEC is labeled by various names by the different electronics equipment manufacturers.  LG calls it SimpLink, Panasonic’s implementation is EZ Sync, Sony BRAVIA’s is Theatre Sync, Samsung’s is Anynet, and Toshiba’s is CE-Link.

I would recommend that anyone with a TV that exhibits HDMI problems, go into the menus of your TV and turn the CEC feature off, reboot the U-Verse STB, and see if HDMI now works.

Message Edited by SomeJoe7777 on 12-03-2008 03:03 PM

[ah183]

Good theory, but unfortunately CEC isn't the problem.  Anynet was already turned off on my Samsung HDTV and I am still having problems.

Is anyone using HDMI without seeing these problems?  Maybe it would help to know which TVs ARE working properly. 

[showtime48 ACE - Guru]

been using hdmi since jan. on 2 tv's. the 1 hdtv non-dvr stb has always worked and the dvr-stb has worked since i did the work around that been posted many times. they are both 32" polaroids that were bought almost exactly 1 year ago. (black friday 2007)...

Message Edited by showtime48 on 12-04-2008 07:13 PM

[SomeJoe7777 ACE - Geek]

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ah183 wrote:

Good theory, but unfortunately CEC isn't the problem.  Anynet was already turned off on my Samsung HDTV and I am still having problems.

Is anyone using HDMI without seeing these problems?  Maybe it would help to know which TVs ARE working properly. 

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Sorry that didn't work for you.

I have been using HDMI with my TV and I have not had any problems.  My TV is a Sony KDS-55A3000.

[awhited74]

Here are some good articles on the insight of HDMI and why it may not work sometimes.

The Basics of HDMI

Quote: CD: Some consumers have had problems with HDMI connections. What is the cause of this?

SV: Like any standard (I think of USB in particular), interoperability and compatibility can be issues, especially in early implementations. There are some products out in the market today that do pose compatibility problems. Most of these problems come about by improper implementations of the technology. Whenever problems like these are exposed, the HDMI standards group contacts the manufacturer and requires that the issue be resolved. In some cases, products have been recalled.

One of the classes of products that has been especially problematic is the set-top box. Some early set-top boxes were improperly designed. Some of these design issues were fixed, but unfortunately, many local cable service providers have still not upgraded their customers' set-top boxes with the new firmware upgrades or new boxes to make them compliant and compatible. The result: many customers may have set-top boxes with HDMI outputs that could be faulty and not work with certain TVs or with A/V receivers. Unfortunately, the only recourse any of us has is to complain to our local cable companies.

This article is directed to manufacturers and how they should design/implement/test the HDMI standard.

HDMI/DVI HDCP handshake problems & how to avoid them

[ah183]

It looks like the Sony KDS-55A3000 has HDMI 1.3.  My TV has 1.2.  Maybe the THDVR upgrade broke backward compatibility with HDMI 1.2?  Does anybody have a TV with HDMI 1.2 that is still working properly after the THDVR upgrade?

[Knowbusiness]

I have come to the conclusion that HDMI itself is a failed techonology. I have had issues with the hdmi on my dvr since day 1, and over time it got gradually worse. This past weekend, the signal was getting disrupted to the point that the picture almost froze completely, while other TVs with component hookups sped merrily along. Last night I unplugged the hdmi cable from the stb and the sound (I use optical for sound) told me the stb was happy once again. I have a LG 42LB5D - 42" LCD TV, 2007 model, which is 1.3 compatible. I hooked up a ps3, and it has no issues.

For the next part. I have an older Toshiba 46" rear projection with one hdmi slot. The non-dvr stb only worked ocassionaly at first, so I went straight to component. I had my ps3 connected to the TV via hdmi, and it worked great for almost a year. Then, out of the blue, I got a red screen and the TV shut down. It took me a while to realize that either the hdmi card went bad, or a system update to the ps3 forced hdmi 1.3 through, which the TV does not have.

It seems as if hdmi may not be backwards compatible. It also seems as if the protocol for updates on hdmi are not standard, and every software maker is doing their own thing.

I have not noticed any significant difference in picture quality, so I am sticking with component for the time being.

[oz_1 ACE - Wizard]

I don't think HDMI is a failed technology as it was supposed to be backwards compatible like usb but certain mfg's chose what they would use 

and it has made handshake issues a nightmare for consumers and installers and do to greed and politics we had a near perfect system called

firewire/ieee1394 that had copy 5c protection that today has not been busted that worked and could daisy chain several pieces of gear so this is

one time IMO that we the consumer have been forced to accept a more complex standard that still might not be finalized so the story goes 1.0,

1.1,1.2,1.2a,1.2b,1.3,1.3a and now( 1.3b which does not concern the consumer. )

[bugda15]

This solution worked for me thanks.   I unplugged my HDMI cable from my cisco box, did a soft reset (hold the power button for 5 seconds) then plugged it in.   The HDMI connection was recognized.

[lrdiver]

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oz wrote:

I don't think HDMI is a failed technology as it was supposed to be backwards compatible like USB but certain mfg's chose what they would use 

and it has made handshake issues a nightmare for consumers and installers and do to greed and politics we had a near perfect system called

firewire/ieee1394 that had copy 5c protection that today has not been busted that worked and could daisy chain several pieces of gear so this is

one time IMO that we the consumer have been forced to accept a more complex standard that still might not be finalized so the story goes 1.0,

1.1,1.2,1.2a,1.2b,1.3,1.3a and now( 1.3b which does not concern the consumer. )

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HDMI is backward compatible. However there have been numerous compatibility issues. There is no reason what so ever to upgrade your TV to HDMI 1.3 just to use U-verse. There could be the potential to buy a new TV with a solution that may be more compatible with U-verse, but my HDMI 1.1 TV works as well with U-verse as it does with other HDMI devices.

The link below has a nice summary of what the various versions of HDMI were all about. From what I can tell, there have not been any changes since the original HDMI 1.0 that should affect U-verse. AT&T could certainly add the new "Deep Color" option that HDMI 1.3 supports but this is strictly an option.

http://www.octavainc.com/HDMI%201.3.htm 

If HDMI has failed, it was in the area of insuring compatibility. The same thing happened with Wireless standards many years ago. It took a long time to get true compatibility with 802.11 devices. I'm not even sure that it's 100% even today.

The problem is that even today there is no single entity responsible for compatibility. There are several compatibility testing labs that have sprung up but the issues still seem to persist. I don't know this for a fact but I did read not long ago that a major retailer was going to require that anything they sold be tested by the same lab. This may be one way around the problem.

Of course with something like U-verse, we don't have much of a choice if it does not work. If it were some other box, we could simply return it. AT&T is in the middle of this whole mess and really has no control over what a particular manufacturer may have done. Some may not have had compatibility testing done at all. It would be smart to look into this on your next HDMI purchase.

In my case, my Mits TV claims compatibility with Simplay HD. Simplay Labs is one of the HDMI test labs. You can review the products that they have tested at the link below;

http://www.simplaylabs.com/consumers/verified_products.aspx 

There are some others. As you can see, it's been enough of an issue to cause a whole new business sector to sprout up.

Even with this compatibility certification on my Mits, I still need to go through the "correct" power up sequence with HDMI devices. The U-verse box does seem to work ok in this respect once it does work. The first time I used it I first powered the U-verse STB down. ( no power at all) I don't believe that it's a good idea to connect an HDMI cable with the power on anyway. Then connect the HDMI cable, turn on the TV, select the proper input on the TV, then plug in the power to the U-verse STB.

The system seems to continue to work fine through shutting the TV off if I do not put the TV in power save mode. If I do that, then I need to power up the TV and then reset the STB. I have this same sort of issue with my DVD player too but the DVD player does not take so long to boot up.

It's nuts and not very consumer friendly. I don't happen to have a Simplay compatible device. It would be interesting to see if this same power up issue existed with one.

[chemgeek]

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AlsoRan wrote:

I also fail to sync with hdmi.  I have a new TV and a new HT receiver.  Component cables are not an option for me.  I ran hdmi through the walls from the media closet to the wall mounted TV.  There is no way I could fish component cable throught there now.  My Comcast box (also manufactured by Motorola) synced flawlessly. 

For me, the problem seems to be between the HT receiver (Onkyo 750) and the STB.  I can get it to sync by leaving the TV on, turning off the receiver, turning off the STB, turning on the receiver, waiting for the blue HD light on the STB, then turning on the STB.  This workaround has not made me or U-Verse very popular with my wife.  I am exploring programming the whole ugly sequence into a Harmony remote control.

Message Edited by AlsoRan on 11-24-2008 04:04 PM

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I have the same exact problem with my Onkyo 804 which was firmware upgraded to HDMI 1.3 due to handshake issues with the PS3.  It seems to be an issue of the STB not properly establishing an HD signal (as the problem occurs for me when the blue light doesn't come on).  Power cycling a couple of times seems to fix the problem as you have inidcated.  If you get a sequance programed into the Harmony remote, can you share it?  I would like to figure out a sequence that works as well. 

[lrdiver]

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ah183 wrote:
It looks like the Sony KDS-55A3000 has HDMI 1.3.  My TV has 1.2.  Maybe the THDVR upgrade broke backward compatibility with HDMI 1.2?  Does anybody have a TV with HDMI 1.2 that is still working properly after the THDVR upgrade?

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I have a 2007 Mits DLP that seems to work OK. Mits does not specify HDMI version level per the HDMI recommendation though. There is really nothing about this TV that requires more than HDMI 1.0.

I do need to go through some mystical incantations to get it to work. I first need to have the TV turned on with the STB HDMI input selected. I then need to reboot the STB. After that, it works fine. I need to do the same thing with my DVD player so it's not really u-verse related.

Curiously when it does not work, I get a picture but no sound.

One additional thing, if I put the TV in it's power save turn off mode, I need to go through the above process every time I turn it on. I don't use power save because the TV sometimes looses it's other settings.

The TV does claim HDMI compatibility through SimPlay Labs testing. I don't know who Sony uses. Some manufacturers may not have used 3rd party compatibility testing.

[CableHater]

Everyone posting on this board is MUCH more technical than I, believe me, so I'm confused and have a question. I have 2 HD t.v's, got U-Verse in Nov., everything working just fine, both have HDMI, both hooked up with HDMI cables (for arguments sake, one is a Vizio the other a Mitsu, the Mitsu 4 yrs old, Vizio 2) Everything's been working just fine, we were hooked up AFTER the THDVR upgrade, then out of the blue the Mitsu has that big padlock symbol and the message "Your t.v. cannot support HDCP (H1001)" Okay, so all of this nothing new to this discussion, my question is this, if this is nothing new, the issue's been around for a while, why was my Mitsu t.v. working just fine until 1 week ago? Why does this happen out of the blue? If my t.v.'s not compatible, shouldn't it have happened right off the bat? Wasn't it just as incompatible 2 weeks ago? 1 Month ago? And why don't I have the same issue on the Vizio, it's mfg date is 2+ years old.? Again, I'm not technical AT ALL, but I'm trying to follow along here and learn, it just isn't making logical sense to me. The only thing we all have in common is U-Verse. It's like tracing the recent peanut salmonella fiasco, it affected people from all different parts, who ate all different things, but it all traced back to the peanut mfg.

[RCSMG ACE - Master]

Did you try doing a hard reset of the stb?  Unplug it for about 15 seconds.

[mibrnsurg ACE - Geek]

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CableHater wrote:
Everyone posting on this board is MUCH more technical than I, believe me, so I'm confused and have a question. I have 2 HD t.v's, got U-Verse in Nov., everything working just fine, both have HDMI, both hooked up with HDMI cables (for arguments sake, one is a Vizio the other a Mitsu, the Mitsu 4 yrs old, Vizio 2) Everything's been working just fine, we were hooked up AFTER the THDVR upgrade, then out of the blue the Mitsu has that big padlock symbol and the message "Your t.v. cannot support HDCP (H1001)" Okay, so all of this nothing new to this discussion, my question is this, if this is nothing new, the issue's been around for a while, why was my Mitsu t.v. working just fine until 1 week ago? Why does this happen out of the blue? If my t.v.'s not compatible, shouldn't it have happened right off the bat? Wasn't it just as incompatible 2 weeks ago? 1 Month ago? And why don't I have the same issue on the Vizio, it's mfg date is 2+ years old.? Again, I'm not technical AT ALL, but I'm trying to follow along here and learn, it just isn't making logical sense to me. The only thing we all have in common is U-Verse. It's like tracing the recent peanut salmonella fiasco, it affected people from all different parts, who ate all different things, but it all traced back to the peanut mfg.

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I have a hunch your boxes were rebooting last weekend like many were reporting (including mine, 3 different times in 48 hrs) and something downloaded that is now incompatible w/the Mitsi.  I have a hunch they upgraded the HDCP to the latest release and the Mitsi is having handshaking/security problems.  Try unpluggging the HDMI cable for 10 seconds and replug it in to see if that helps.  If not use RC's idea of unplug the HDMI cable and do a soft reboot by pressing the power button until all lights flash.  Then after 5 minutes plug the HDMI cable back in.  Hope this helps as the only other recourse will be component cables.

Chris

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Please NO SD stretch-o-vision or 480 SD HD Channels
1-800-983-2811 to avoid Mr. Voice Recognition

Message Edited by mibrnsurg on 03-14-2009 09:05 PM

[CableHater]

I did a soft reboot and unplugged the HDMI cable and that did the trick. I really hope this doesn't become a regular occurrence. Thanks for the advice!

[Schwingman]

Just for the record my 42" Sanyo is hooked up with HDMI and it hasn't had any problems

[gsboehm]

I have 42" Samsung Plasma TV (HP-S4253) attached to my Cisco THDVR via HDMI and every now and again I will get the "No Signal" message. I have to restart my box by holding down the power button for 5 seconds and waiting the ridiculously long time it takes to reboot. It seems this thread has been dead for awhile now but I thought I'd add something that I've noticed....whenever the "no signal" message appears, the blue light (HD) signal on the front of the box stays on even after I turn the box off. Normally when I turn off the box the blue light turns off as well.  

Has anyone figured out how to fix this problem?

[PowerCycle]

Ok, first thing is that the Motorolla box is not just designed to work with the HDMI cable. You can have RCA,Component,Coax,S-Video, and even Optical cable plug in to it. It just depends on what type of TV you have. HDMI cable doesn't usually have that much issue. However, if you are getting a screen that saying "No signal" then rebooting wont fix the problem. You need to change the "Input" of the TV. Just like when you are running your DVD player on your TV, you need to setup the input to display the DVD on the screen. Its the same thing with the receivers of AT&T.

Try pressing TV/Video button on the U-Verse remote, and choose HDMI1, HDMI2, or HMDI3... Which ever you have. If all else fail, its probably the HDMI cable that's defective, so to see if it is you go and try the same HDMI cable on the other receiver and tv and see it if will work on it. If not, then its really the HDMI cable you are using that has a problem.

I would usually recommend using the component cables (blue, green, and red) and adding RCA audio cables to support the sound. So if its working with component cable, why not use it instead? Why persist on using HDMI when your TV is working with component?

Message Edited by PowerCycle on 03-19-2009 05:44 PM