Re: ATT throttles unlimited account when data usage is only 1.5Gb

DimentoGraven · ‎03-25-2008

wingrider01 wrote:
You misunderstand - 800K has nothing to do with bandwidth costs, that is strictly for network infrastructure, bandwidth costs are budgeted under a different catagory

Sorry to disappoint you but I am not a "business exec" as you so blithely stated. Lets face it I work form the business standpoint and contractual obligations,, you don't that is the basic difference here have a good day, hope you find a carrier that fits what you feel you deserve.

No, I didn't misunderstand. We're talking about the same thing whether you realize it or not.

I'm hoping you've paid the same amount of money for an infrastructure of the same size (as you indicated), but, supports a higher bandwidth capacity (my assumption).

If you've "upgraded" your infrastructure and nothing has improved (same number of nodes, at the same maximum bandwidth capacity), then I'm missing the "upgrade" part.

When I find a carrier that won't lie to me, you're right, I'll switch. Unfortunately as is pointed out in many other posts they all pretty much lie as much as possible, even when the plain truth would serve better.

DimentoGraven · ‎03-25-2008

wingrider01 wrote:
103 million customers - up from 93 million, the lowest churn rate in the industry, they must be doing something right contrary to what you believe.

don;t count the t-mobile issue as down and out, DT wants out of the US market, they will start piecing infrastructure and contracts out to who ever wants to buy them - and that type of sale does not need anyone's approval outside of the buyer and dellor of the assets, att will end up with the what ththey originall wanted from t-mobile in the end, it just will take longer then a sale of the complete assets of the company in in block. T-mobile users are the ones that will suffer, the parent company of DT have stated time and time again that it will only make minor enhancements to the US market and will conentrate on their home markets in Europe.

But is AT&T including their large business customers on that? I haven't looked at the numbers, but I would be suprised if AT&T is still gaining non-business customers now that the iPhone is available on other vendor's networks.

I am fairly certain AT&T's business customer base is growing. Heck the company I work for switched from Verizon to AT&T (I was told that long distance will be charged at some rediculously low price per minute, like 5 cents per minute or something) this year and with nearly 300,000 employees with a large percent of them receiving company Blackberry's, that's quite a bump.

Also is that number specific to the cellular provider side, not counting customers from other services that can be 'packaged', for instance like the Uverse customers?

For the most part Uverse is pretty good (although the STB's AT&T use are absolute crap, which can be seen if you were to take a few hours and visit a few UPS stores and ask how many STB's they ship back to AT&T on a DAILY basis), but the service itself is fairly ok, so new Uverse customers who also get voice services, are they being counted in that total?

The AT&T stores I've been to and frequently pass (one interstingly enough RIGHT NEXT to the UPS store I visit daily) are pretty much always empty, but I admit that's only anecdotal at best, not truly symptomatic of anything...

DimentoGraven · ‎03-25-2008

johninsj wrote:

There is no counter argument here. The contracts aren't negotiable.

They are what they are. I get that you don't like the contract. Your option then is to select another carrier.

I have been on the tiered plan for 18 months, with three devices. None of the devices has ever gone over the 2GB base allotment.

Even if you only go over the 2GB every single month by 1 GB, probabliity states that on average you will go over by .5 GB. So you pay $10 for .5GB on average. Always. No matter how many other 1GB units, 0 or more, are also used. The last one will be no worse than $10 for .5GB. Because that's how math works.

You'll have to explain to me where "probability states that on average you will go over by .5gb". That's math I'm not getting... You using trig, or maybe some non-euclidean geometry to make that happen?

When someone starts down this line of reasoning, I can't help but remember that even AT&T admits their billing based on "estimates" of usage, and tell us that they can't tell us exactly to the bit, byte, kilobyte, or even megabyte how much data we've used at any point in time.

I also remember all those studies that have shown AT&T's billing is typically off by +20% of actual usage.

What all that means is that you could be at 1.81gb ACTUAL utilization but because of AT&T's "guess work" or "rounding" issues, or whatever you want to chalk it up to, they're most likely going to be billing you at 2.01gb ESTIMATED usage which as everyone has agreed, means that AT&T just charged you 10 bucks for that .01 ESTIMATED, NOT ACTUAL, overage...

wingrider01 · ‎05-26-2008

DimentoGraven wrote:

wingrider01 wrote:

103 million customers - up from 93 million, the lowest churn rate in the industry, they must be doing something right contrary to what you believe.

don;t count the t-mobile issue as down and out, DT wants out of the US market, they will start piecing infrastructure and contracts out to who ever wants to buy them - and that type of sale does not need anyone's approval outside of the buyer and dellor of the assets, att will end up with the what ththey originall wanted from t-mobile in the end, it just will take longer then a sale of the complete assets of the company in in block. T-mobile users are the ones that will suffer, the parent company of DT have stated time and time again that it will only make minor enhancements to the US market and will conentrate on their home markets in Europe.

But is AT&T including their large business customers on that? I haven't looked at the numbers, but I would be suprised if AT&T is still gaining non-business customers now that the iPhone is available on other vendor's networks.

I am fairly certain AT&T's business customer base is growing. Heck the company I work for switched from Verizon to AT&T this year and with nearly 300,000 employees with a large percent of them receiving company Blackberry's, that's quite a bump.

Also is that number specific to the cellular provider side, not counting customers from other services that can be 'packaged', for instance like the Uverse customers?

For the most part Uverse is pretty good (although the STB's AT&T use are absolute crap, which can be seen if you were to take a few hours and visit a few UPS stores and ask how many STB's they ship back to AT&T on a DAILY basis), but the service itself is fairly ok, so new Uverse customers who also get voice services, are they being counted in that total?

The AT&T stores I've been to and frequently pass (one interstingly enough RIGHT NEXT to the UPS store I visit daily) are pretty much always empty, but I admit that's only anecdotal at best, not truly symptomatic of anything...

That is wireless customers only, no idea what industry standard is but would suspect that if has a cell phone contract it is counted for ANY carrier in business in the world/

As far as "stores being empty" this is the age of sit on the tush and press a button to order something. less over head and easire to handle, funny thing - the same exact thing that you state can also peetain to verizon, sprint, cricket, t-mobile, and any other carrier you wish to name, have seen 5 storefrints for verizon in the mall of america plus 5 or 6 kisoks and gues what - they where fairly empty also - this was the largest mall in the US around black friday, as you state, it means aboslutely nothing.

You know this is useless, the bottom line - unlimted data >< unlimited speed, the throttle is here to stay for multiple carriers until the plans get sunseted, ATT is not the only one that does it

In the end, the only one that controls usages is the person utilizing the phone, self moderation in anything is the person responsibilty and no one elses.

Merry Christmas

DimentoGraven · ‎03-25-2008

wingrider01 wrote:

In the end, the only one that controls usages is the person utilizing the phone, self moderation in anything is the person responsibilty and no one elses.

Merry Christmas

Took me long enough to get someone there, but, finally.

You hear that AT&T? We want to moderate ourselves... CUT IT OUT ALREADY!

rockyle0511 · ‎12-14-2011

I hate at&t they do anything to get your money the only reason I am with them is because they are nationwide if it was not for that I would drop them in a heart beat they don't care about there customers

wingrider01 · ‎05-26-2008

DimentoGraven wrote:

wingrider01 wrote:

In the end, the only one that controls usages is the person utilizing the phone, self moderation in anything is the person responsibilty and no one elses.

Merry Christmas

Took me long enough to get someone there, but, finally.

You hear that AT&T? We want to moderate ourselves... CUT IT OUT ALREADY!

/rofl

If you can;t moderate yourself then someone has to do it for you - aka 20 MPH speed limits in school zones, 1000.00 fines for exceeded the reduced speed limits in constructions zones. It is called personal responsbility.

I set a limit for the childern on tv and computer gaming time spent and rules before they can do it, I trust them to follow those limits, if they don't I "throttle" them, same thing.

Thing to remember - if you successfully self-moderate then ATT or any other carrier will not do it for you, so you got you wish already, they already have the "cut it out" portion in place

Not going to happen so might as well go with the flow

johninsj · ‎07-07-2010

DimentoGraven wrote:

johninsj wrote:

There is no counter argument here. The contracts aren't negotiable.

They are what they are. I get that you don't like the contract. Your option then is to select another carrier.

I have been on the tiered plan for 18 months, with three devices. None of the devices has ever gone over the 2GB base allotment.

Even if you only go over the 2GB every single month by 1 GB, probability states that on average you will go over by .5 GB. So you pay $10 for .5GB on average. Always. No matter how many other 1GB units, 0 or more, are also used. The last one will be no worse than $10 for .5GB. Because that's how math works.

You'll have to explain to me where "probability states that on average you will go over by .5gb". That's math I'm not getting... You using trig, or maybe some non-euclidean geometry to make that happen?

There are 100 slots for usage between 0.01 GB and 1GB. If as you assert the user has no control over the actual usage, then you are saying each of those slots is equally likely, so the probability for each is 1/100. The uniform distribution (since all outcomes are equally likely) over time of observed results means that, over time you are just as likely to use any amount between 0.01 and 0,99 GB. Average of all values between 0.01 and 0,99 is 0.5. Therefore, over time, your average usage of that last GB can be computed as .5 GB

That's pretty much HS probability and statistics.

johninsj · ‎07-07-2010

DimentoGraven wrote:

wingrider01 wrote:

In the end, the only one that controls usages is the person utilizing the phone, self moderation in anything is the person responsibilty and no one elses.

Merry Christmas

Took me long enough to get someone there, but, finally.

You hear that AT&T? We want to moderate ourselves... CUT IT OUT ALREADY!

AT&T has a plan for that. The metered plan. You moderate youself. You get unlimited data, no throttle, and you pay for whatever you want to use.

So yes, they do hear you.

dwill05 · ‎04-06-2005

Not sure why this argument is still dragging on. OK, AT&T would like to get everyone off the unlimited plan and over to the tiered plan. Fine. And it sounds like they have started metering people who go over a certain amount on an unlimited plan. Right or wrong, it sounds like they are doing it and getting away with it. Right now, the options seems to be 1) Suck it up, 2) Fight AT&T in court if you believe they are violating TOS or some other legal constraint, or 3) Leave AT&T for another carrier. That's pretty much it.

This isn't a "fanboi" (fanboy for people who can spell) post or saying AT&T is doing what's morally right. They are a large corporate business and doing what they think they can get away with. That's life, unfortunately. People have options as shown above.

dwill05 · ‎04-06-2005

rockyle0511 wrote:
I hate at&t they do anything to get your money the only reason I am with them is because they are nationwide if it was not for that I would drop them in a heart beat they don't care about there customers

You say you hate them, yet they are still getting your money every month. Sounds like they are doing enough from a business standpoint for their customers if people who hate them will still stay with them.

DimentoGraven · ‎03-25-2008

wingrider01 wrote:

/rofl

If you can;t moderate yourself then someone has to do it for you - aka 20 MPH speed limits in school zones, 1000.00 fines for exceeded the reduced speed limits in constructions zones. It is called personal responsbility.

I set a limit for the childern on tv and computer gaming time spent and rules before they can do it, I trust them to follow those limits, if they don't I "throttle" them, same thing.

Thing to remember - if you successfully self-moderate then ATT or any other carrier will not do it for you, so you got you wish already, they already have the "cut it out" portion in place

Not going to happen so might as well go with the flow

Really? You're really going to compare using your phone as designed, and as originally advertised, with speeding? You really want to do that? Fine, here's something to consider: With any kind of speed limit it is required that the limit is clearly posted. If the speed limit changes, there's supposed to be public notification. What AT&T has done is posted their "speed limit" bind a crap ton of trees, not enforced it EVER, and then suddenly started placing 'traffic cops' behind those trees.

Nope sorry, that doesn't work.

I also don't appreciate your chid and video game analogy because now you're saying that those of us who are using our data plan the way it was originally advertised and the way we have always used it before are children. If your child had been playing their xbox all the time because when you gave it to the child, they said, "Oh man! Can I really play that?" and you said, "Sure kid! All you want!" and then as the child goes and runs off to play, you say under your breath, "Under most circumstances, though I might cut you off if I decide that you're not using it acceptably..." Then 5 years later you randomly start saying, "You're playing that too much, you only get 15 minutes a day!" "But, but why dad? You said all I want!" "Well I can't help it if you walked out of the room and didn't hear me whisper under my breath that there would be limits." The child actually DOES have a right to think you're a cretin because YOU did not make that cear to the child.

AT&T was sneaky in how they have handled "unlimited". They use a Mad Magezine Fold-in word smithing, where they advertise unlimited but the contract in various seemingly unrelated areas and in very ambiguous terms indicates that their might actually be limits to unlimited. They started lying about the unlimited plan and its affects when they introduced tiered plans. They've lied about why they're suddenly deciding to start throttling the unlimited users now. They can't even be trusted to bill tiered users accurately, but that's where they want everyone to go, although I'm sure all the tiered users' contracts suffers the same word smithing, so even after AT&T FINALLY kills off the unlimited plan, the tier 2 and tier 3 customers are subject to the same 'willy-nilly' application of the rules.

Sorry, AT&T has handled this wrong from day one.

I'm sorry you've drunk the kool-aid and are incapable of seeing and getting rightfully annoyed when a company is treating people badly.

[word filter avoidance]

wingrider01 · ‎05-26-2008

DimentoGraven wrote:

wingrider01 wrote:

/rofl

If you can;t moderate yourself then someone has to do it for you - aka 20 MPH speed limits in school zones, 1000.00 fines for exceeded the reduced speed limits in constructions zones. It is called personal responsbility.

I set a limit for the childern on tv and computer gaming time spent and rules before they can do it, I trust them to follow those limits, if they don't I "throttle" them, same thing.

Thing to remember - if you successfully self-moderate then ATT or any other carrier will not do it for you, so you got you wish already, they already have the "cut it out" portion in place

Not going to happen so might as well go with the flow

Really? You're really going to compare using your phone as designed, and as originally advertised, with speeding? You really want to do that? Fine, here's something to consider: With any kind of speed limit it is required that the limit is clearly posted. If the speed limit changes, there's supposed to be public notification. What AT&T has done is posted their "speed limit" bind a crap ton of trees, not enforced it EVER, and then suddenly started placing 'traffic cops' behind those trees.

Nope sorry, that doesn't work.

I also don't appreciate your chid and video game analogy because now you're saying that those of us who are using our data plan the way it was originally advertised and the way we have always used it before are children. Even if we were, if your child had been playing their xbox all the time because when you gave it to the child, they said, "Oh man! Can I really play that?" and you said, "Sure kid! All you want!" and then as the child goes and runs off to play, you say under your breath, "Under most circumstances, though I might cut you off if I decide that you're not using it acceptably..." Then 5 years later you randomly start saying, "You're playing that too much, you only get 15 minutes a day!" "But, but why dad? You said all I want!" "Well I can't help it if you walked out of the room and didn't hear me whisper under my breath that there would be limits." The child actually DOES have a right to think you're a cretin because YOU did not make that cear to the child.

AT&T was sneaky in how they have handled "unlimited". They use a Mad Magezine Fold-in word smithing, where they advertise unlimited but the contract in various seemingly unrelated areas and in very ambiguous terms indicates that their might actually be limits to unlimited. They started lying about the unlimited plan and its affects when they introduced tiered plans. They've lied about why they're suddenly deciding to start throttling the unlimited users now. They can't even be trusted to bill tiered users accurately, but that's where they want everyone to go, although I'm sure all the tiered users' contracts suffers the same word smithing, so even after AT&T FINALLY kills off the unlimited plan, the tier 2 and tier 3 customers are subject to the same 'willy-nilly' application of the rules.

Sorry, AT&T has handled this wrong from day one.

I'm sorry you've drunk the kool-aid and are incapable of seeing and getting rightfully annoyed when a company is treating people badly.

[word filter avoidance]

It is a limit that requires self moderation to stay within, go outside confines and get throttled with points and hefty fines, if you think that speed limit changes need to be publicly posted before they are made you are sadly mistaken, they change when the state decides that the limit is not suitable for the roads, if the 5th estate finds out about it ahead of time and there is nothing else to report they will publish it.

Like the fair use policy for data, the usage policy was set forth at the begining for game and non-school computer use. Sorry if it offends you but it is a good and accurate example. They can not adhere to self moderation within the policies set forth, then the controlling entity steps in an enforces the policy that has always been in place

I do agree with you that att handled this wrong, the data plan should have had a sunset clause in effect when they grandfathered it - tied to the device in additional to the line, if the device was changed out or upgraded the unlimited plan would automaticly be removed from the device, just like they did the "no data plan for smartphones" policy they have about 6 years ago.

Now adays they don;t need cops behind every tree, just a speed camera, as far as your "koolaid" comment, guess ytou are right, just a little off on when it happened, more decades ago then I want to remember when I decided I wanted to open my own business. contractual enforcement of terms is a good thing.

DimentoGraven · ‎03-25-2008

johninsj wrote:
DimentoGraven wrote:
johninsj wrote:

There is no counter argument here. The contracts aren't negotiable.

They are what they are. I get that you don't like the contract. Your option then is to select another carrier.

I have been on the tiered plan for 18 months, with three devices. None of the devices has ever gone over the 2GB base allotment.

Even if you only go over the 2GB every single month by 1 GB, probability states that on average you will go over by .5 GB. So you pay $10 for .5GB on average. Always. No matter how many other 1GB units, 0 or more, are also used. The last one will be no worse than $10 for .5GB. Because that's how math works.
You'll have to explain to me where "probability states that on average you will go over by .5gb". That's math I'm not getting... You using trig, or maybe some non-euclidean geometry to make that happen?

There are 100 slots for usage between 0.01 GB and 1GB. If as you assert the user has no control over the actual usage, then you are saying each of those slots is equally likely, so the probability for each is 1/100. The uniform distribution (since all outcomes are equally likely) over time of observed results means that, over time you are just as likely to use any amount between 0.01 and 0,99 GB. Average of all values between 0.01 and 0,99 is 0.5. Therefore, over time, your average usage of that last GB can be computed as .5 GB

That's pretty much HS probability and statistics.

I'm not sure where I said they have no control over "actual usage", what did imply is that the user has no control over what AT&T decides to 'estimate' usage at.

I disagree with your theory. It's more probable that usage patterns from any given user will be fairly consistant after the user becomes familiar with their app. They'll use the same apps in the same ways in the same types of locations, for the same periods of time so that it's possible that a user's ACTUAL usage could be fairly consistant to 1.81 gb per month. Of course with AT&T's proven penchant for "over estimation" of our usage a user could be estimated at having used 2.1+gb in a month and are billed for another gb.

It's why there've been so very very very many stories we've seen here and elsewhere where when tiered plans were announced, some users looked at their bill's usage estimates over the past 6 months, or year, or further back, determined that, "Gee, according to this bill, I've never used more than 150mb (or 1.2gb) in a month, I can save money by switching to the teir 1/2 plan! Yippee!!!" Then shortly after having been switched, suddenly AT&T's estimates shot up, even though according to the users their usage habits/patterns did not change.

It's a story we've seen over and over and over and over and over, AT&T can't actually PROVE what your usage is, they are only providing an estimated usage on the billing. The problem is so bad that if anyone even seems like they're going to raise a stink AT&T will probably cave and not charge for the overage.

AT&T is trying to play its customers for fools, its obvious.

If/when AT&T tries it with me, yes, I probably will at that time go find another carrier. Until then while not yet affected, I'm still going to loudly and vociferously argue that AT&T should NOT be doing those things, or not in the way they have been attempting to do them, as loudly as if I was one of those who was affected.

It's not that I "expect the world", it's that I expect that those people I am giving money to, to provide me a service, will actually provide the service and not come back to me years later and start saying, "You know that service we provide? Well we're not making enough profit off you. It's not that we're not making a profit, it's just not enough for us, so we we're going to start applying obscure rules and giving you less service. It's not that YOU have changed anything, we know you're using the service the way you always have. It's just that we want more money, and we don't want to work as hard, and oh by the way, instead of being honest about it, we'll lie to you..."

DimentoGraven · ‎03-25-2008

johninsj wrote:
AT&T has a plan for that. The metered plan. You moderate youself. You get unlimited data, no throttle, and you pay for whatever you want to use.

So yes, they do hear you.

Unfortunatley for a data dependant device it's the equivelant of advertising "unlimited air" for people... "Oh you're breathing too much, we're going start throttling your O2... Maybe not enough to kill you completely, but, you're probably going to be unconscious until the next billing period..."

Yeah, that's "unlimited" all right.

You guys can split hairs all you want, but when the throttling effectively breaks the functions, then it doesn't matter, limited or not, because the net affect is you can't use the data apps on your phone.

Please for god's sake STOP calling it unlimited. It is not. Every time you do, you lie.

wingrider01 · ‎05-26-2008

DimentoGraven wrote:

johninsj wrote:

AT&T has a plan for that. The metered plan. You moderate youself. You get unlimited data, no throttle, and you pay for whatever you want to use.

So yes, they do hear you.

Unfortunatley for a data dependant device it's the equivelant of advertising "unlimited air" for people... "Oh you're breathing too much, we're going start throttling your O2... Maybe not enough to kill you completely, but, you're probably going to be unconscious until the next billing period..."

Yeah, that's "unlimited" all right.

You guys can split hairs all you want, but when the throttling effectively breaks the functions, then it doesn't matter, limited or not, because the net affect is you can't use the data apps on your phone.

Please for god's sake STOP calling it unlimited. It is not. Every time you do, you lie.

It is only a lie in your mind..

Question If I am throttled do I still have the data usage, althoguh it is not as fast as I feel it should be

Answer - Yes you do still have unlimited access to data at a reduced speed.

No lie, unless you can come up with valididateable ATT documentation (or ANY carrier by for that matter) that promises you unlimited data at unlimited speeds.

funny thing - this same type of converstation is being held on other carriers forums due their form of throttling that they call by another name.

johninsj · ‎07-07-2010

DimentoGraven wrote:

johninsj wrote:

DimentoGraven wrote:

johninsj wrote:

There is no counter argument here. The contracts aren't negotiable.

They are what they are. I get that you don't like the contract. Your option then is to select another carrier.

I have been on the tiered plan for 18 months, with three devices. None of the devices has ever gone over the 2GB base allotment.

Even if you only go over the 2GB every single month by 1 GB, probability states that on average you will go over by .5 GB. So you pay $10 for .5GB on average. Always. No matter how many other 1GB units, 0 or more, are also used. The last one will be no worse than $10 for .5GB. Because that's how math works.

You'll have to explain to me where "probability states that on average you will go over by .5gb". That's math I'm not getting... You using trig, or maybe some non-euclidean geometry to make that happen?

There are 100 slots for usage between 0.01 GB and 1GB. If as you assert the user has no control over the actual usage, then you are saying each of those slots is equally likely, so the probability for each is 1/100. The uniform distribution (since all outcomes are equally likely) over time of observed results means that, over time you are just as likely to use any amount between 0.01 and 0,99 GB. Average of all values between 0.01 and 0,99 is 0.5. Therefore, over time, your average usage of that last GB can be computed as .5 GB

That's pretty much HS probability and statistics.

I'm not sure where I said they have no control over "actual usage", what did imply is that the user has no control over what AT&T decides to 'estimate' usage at.

I disagree with your theory.

So, your theory is that users who need more that XGB, will on average be able to control their usage such that they consistantly go over the next whole GB by less than .5GB. Interesting. But wrong.

johninsj · ‎07-07-2010

DimentoGraven wrote:

johninsj wrote:

AT&T has a plan for that. The metered plan. You moderate youself. You get unlimited data, no throttle, and you pay for whatever you want to use.

So yes, they do hear you.

Unfortunatley for a data dependant device it's the equivelant of advertising "unlimited air" for people... "Oh you're breathing too much, we're going start throttling your O2... Maybe not enough to kill you completely, but, you're probably going to be unconscious until the next billing period..."

Yeah, that's "unlimited" all right.

You guys can split hairs all you want, but when the throttling effectively breaks the functions, then it doesn't matter, limited or not, because the net affect is you can't use the data apps on your phone.

Please for god's sake STOP calling it unlimited. It is not. Every time you do, you lie.

There is no limit to how much metered data you can use. Just like there is no limit to how much gas you can use in your car, or how much electricity you can use in your home. It is unlimited. It's not free, but it is unlimited.

If the throttled service no longer works for you, you can choose to switch to the metered service, or you can choose another carrier.

Those are the two choices.

tonester · ‎07-14-2006

While I'm not completely against throttling...throttling a user to such a point that his download speeds are practically as slow as a snail is completely unreasonable IMHO; didn't someone claim that his speeds were throttled down to as low as 0.01 Mbps--which if my math is correct, equates to 10 kbps? Heck, even an old-school V.34 faxmodem allows for higher speeds than that...

johninsj · ‎07-07-2010

Yes, but it's an UNLIMITED amount of 10kbps data . Likely the actual speed is somewhere in the "good old modem days" of 20-30kbps, which used to be screaming fast back in the day, and is usable for email.

We can do the math again for fun. Even at 10kbit per second, that's 60kbytes per minute, 450kbytes in an hour, 10.5MB/day,

Likely it's actually 10x that (its confusing to keep track of bits vs bytes, but iOS doesn't report speeds in bits...) or 4.5MB//hour, 105MB/day, 2GB in 20 days. So, assuming you pushed over 2GB in the first week or so and tripped the throttle of doom, you'd still get another 2+GB out of the month through the martini straw, or over 4GB. So you'd be winning vs the metered plan cost wise.

Assuming you did trip it, and it was as low as self-reported.

tonester · ‎07-14-2006

johninsj wrote:
Yes, but it's an UNLIMITED amount of 10kbps data . Likely the actual speed is somewhere in the "good old modem days" of 20-30kbps, which used to be screaming fast back in the day, and is usable for email.

We can do the math again for fun. Even at 10kbit per second, that's 60kbytes per minute, 450kbytes in an hour, 10.5MB/day,

Assuming you did trip it, and it was as low as self-reported.

Let me put it to you this way--would you be happy if you were getting 10 kbps regardless of the reason?

How's this for fun--someone driving his car at 5 mph can do 120 miles in a day, which is (much) more than what the average person who doesn't drive for a living (e.g., not a commercial driver) drives in any given day but let's just say for the sake of argument that that's how much an average driver does drive in one day; would you think that for even one moment the 5 mph guy was thrilled that it took him an entire day to drive a distance that would normally take most folks roughly 2 hours to achieve? Heck at those speeds even 25 mph would have been considered a blessing...

Sorry I don't believe it to be reasonable and/or acceptable that someone who is throttled should be throttled to that of a snail's pace simply because doing so still doesn't prevent him from using as much data as he wants; I'm sure that even you realize that, no matter how fast or how slow your speed is...you can use up only so much data in a fixed period of time (e.g., month)--after all, folks are billed for data usage on a per-month basis, not a "pay only once and use as much as you want forever" basis. After all...10 MB/day is not the same as "unlimited data/day"...not unless your definition of "unlimited" has a numerical value to it--and besides, a throttled user technically still does not get to use "as much data" as he wants to use--what if he wanted to use more than 10 MB/day? Based on what you said, someone throttled at 10 kbps can use up no more than ~10 MB/day...so no, it is possible that he is not able to still use "as much data as he wants" if his usage requires more than 10 MB/day.

DimentoGraven · ‎03-25-2008

The AT&T shills have fully bought into the idea that AT&T can change the defnition of words at their discretion.

The fact is, calling this "unlimited" is a lie, regardless of the facts of the situation before AT&T instituted throttling, or after, calling this plan "unlimited" was apparently ALWAYS a lie.

AT&T is pushing everyone over to tier plans as much as possible, but, and keep in mind this next point, NONE of the shills or fan boys have ever addressed or commented on: AT&T's data billings are 'estimated' from the get go. You are billed on AT&T's esitmates of your usage. There has been plenty of professional testing reported on, on the net that shows that AT&T regularly over estimates your usage, by as much as 20% or more.

The tiered plans are AT&T 'license to steal' from you. Because if you get within 20% of end of your initial allotment, due to AT&T's estimates you're more than probably going to end up being billed for another segment of data. One that you may not even ACTUALLY have used any portion of.

This is the primary reason NOT to go to a tiered plan.

I've stated this multiple times. No one has even come close to actually addressing that point.

Shortly you'll probably see my posting priveledges revoked because I refuse to back down on this and I tend to 'respond in kind' to those AT&T fan boys/shills who address me so ascerbicly, but hey, if you can't explain away the truth, the next best thing is to silence it, right?

orion71483 · ‎12-27-2011

Very true. Unlimited means with out limits and it seems that they are imposing a lot of limits on us with unlimited plans. I signed up for iTunes Match and just a few days later I got a text and my speeds hit a wall. So much for listening to Pandora. I was not planning on changing providers ever until the speeds on my unlimited plan were limited. I'm hoping that AT&T can treat the customers that have had their plans for a while with some more respect.

[word filter avoidance]

wingrider01 · ‎05-26-2008

orion71483 wrote:

Very true. Unlimited means with out limits and it seems that they are imposing a lot of limits on us with unlimited plans. I signed up for iTunes Match and just a few days later I got a text and my speeds hit a wall. So much for listening to Pandora. I was not planning on changing providers ever until the speeds on my unlimited plan were limited. I'm hoping that AT&T can treat the customers that have had their plans for a while with some more respect.

[word filter avoidance]

accuracy is tantamont - it states "unlimited data" that is it, no where does it promise at what speed.

Of the top 3 carriers, your only choice is Sprint, they are the last remain carrier of the top 3 that still offer unlimited data, although their network speed leaves a lot to be desired. Verizon dropped their unlimited plan when the get the iphone 4. By the way verizon is "data managing" the grandfathered unlimited plans also. ROFL even low bottom tier carrier Cricket is throttling also

Kartpusher · ‎12-27-2011

I'm now at 0.13Mbps...my phone is now useless for anything except email. I would have been okay with a higher and more realistic cap based upon proper use cases. The top 5% is a number AT&T can control since they established the data caps. Most people don't want to go over their plan so they max out at 2GB, this creates a false impression that AT&T is being fair. In reality they simply get 5 extra bucks from us for 2 GB a month. The 5% number will never change unless AT&T increases their caps. I feel cheated. I know other carriers are throttling, but the shear misleading has given me a new mission...to tell all family, friends, and acquaintances to move away from AT&T.

DimentoGraven wrote:
The AT&T shills have fully bought into the idea that AT&T can change the defnition of words at their discretion.

The fact is, calling this "unlimited" is a lie, regardless of the facts of the situation before AT&T instituted throttling, or after, calling this plan "unlimited" was apparently ALWAYS a lie.

AT&T is pushing everyone over to tier plans as much as possible, but, and keep in mind this next point, NONE of the shills or fan boys have ever addressed or commented on: AT&T's data billings are 'estimated' from the get go. You are billed on AT&T's esitmates of your usage. There has been plenty of professional testing reported on, on the net that shows that AT&T regularly over estimates your usage, by as much as 20% or more.

The tiered plans are AT&T 'license to steal' from you. Because if you get within 20% of end of your initial allotment, due to AT&T's estimates you're more than probably going to end up being billed for another segment of data. One that you may not even ACTUALLY have used any portion of.

This is the primary reason NOT to go to a tiered plan.

I've stated this multiple times. No one has even come close to actually addressing that point.

Shortly you'll probably see my posting priveledges revoked because I refuse to back down on this and I tend to 'respond in kind' to those AT&T fan boys/shills who address me so ascerbicly, but hey, if you can't explain away the truth, the next best thing is to silence it, right?

DimentoGraven · ‎03-25-2008

At the speeds the people who are throttled are reporting, it'd be darn near impossible to get your data usage beyond 2gb, so yeah, it's a lie, it has always been a lie, and it's even more of a lie when you throttle it.

If AT&T puts in a defacto cap of 2gb per month on the 'unlimited' users and they enforce this cap by throttling the bandwidth down so far that it's only possible to use 2gb per month, regardless, then there is in fact a hard limit, which, again by all definitions, spins, or otherwise out right arrogantly ignorant stances, is NOT 'unlimited'.

rs33 · ‎12-28-2011

I was throttled for first time at 2 gigs. AT&T needs to be way more forthcoming of how this is calculated. I know a number of people with Verizon which also throttles and they get more than 5 gigs. I doubt the user bases are that different so it's obvious the two companies apply the 5% limit very differently.

knucks507 · ‎04-01-2008

I was sent a text message on November 20th 2011 stating that I was in the top 5% of data users on an unlimited data plan and my speeds will be slow downed. At the time I have used 3.5 GB in the New York area. I was understandably upset because I have 2 unlimited data plans 1 for me and 1 for my wife’s iPhone I pay AT&T $170 a month for service and just renewed my contract in October under the premise that AT&T representatives promised that I would be able to keep my unlimited data plan without disclosing to me upfront that the plan would be limited. That being the case I attempted to contact AT&T in regards to this recent development, their response was less than helpful. They stated that Although I do have an unlimited data plan they are going to throttle my speeds if I fall into their Top 5% of unlimited data users to the point where I can no longer use streaming audio or video or even upload a picture up to Facebook in a timely manner that my service with AT&T had me accustom to, essential crippling my data service to the point where it was not usable. They continued and informed me that I could use WIFI networks to limit my strain on their network and also I should just try to use less data. I voiced my opinion that I pay for unlimited and this voluntary crippling of my data services is by no means unlimited. AT&T's response was well technically we are still giving you access to our data network no matter how much we slow it down you still have unlimited access. After multiple calls to AT&T that was the same response over and over again. I proceeded to make a complaint with the BBB after about a week I got 2 phone calls and voicemails from their executive response team, whom I attempted to call back and left more than 3 voicemails on their system before they returned my call by responding to my BBB complaint online stating unfortunately they were not able to get in touch with me, but there’s nothing they can do anyway and reiterated the same policy I have heard over and over again and was asking me if that resolved my problem. I responded to the BBB complaint stating that I never spoke with AT&T representatives although I attempted to contact them multiple times. Someone at AT&T finally called me and I got the same runaround treatment. I asked the representative how much data can I use because 3.5 GB was only about 6 30min TV show episodes throughout the month and some light internet surfing. They said the cap will fluctuate month to month, after I expressed my concern that eventually as people use less and less data that eventually I could be capped at 2 GB or 1 GB or even 100MB she said Matter-of-Factly “yes well if you need reliable service you can sign up for our tiered plan which is $25 a month for 2 GB and $10 a month for each GB over”. That infuriated me the fact that they are crippling my unlimited data service to push me out of my plan which was the only reason I renewed my contract. After that I felt like I was being bullied by a company I give thousands of dollars a year to. Fast forward December 26, 2011 and received another text message from AT&T stating that I am again approaching the top 5% of unlimited data users, I was a little surprised not thinking I used that much data yet. I used AT&T data usage text service and was informed I had reached 1.5 GB’s so far this month at that point I was livid, so again I start my phone call blitz and again I run into a dead end at every turn and every CSR and every High Data Usage Specialist they send me to tells me the same thing you still have unlimited data you just have it at a very slow pace and then they quote the dreaded contract section 6.2 which gives them the blanket statement to do what they want. I try to explain to everyone I speak with that the service I am receiving is not the same unlimited service I had 3 months ago, that my plan has been in effect become more useless than their tired plan and all I hear is, use WiFi or, switch to our tiered plan. My question is if I have an unlimited plan and my data use is a degradation to their network how can someone on a tiered plan not be degrading their network by using more data than an unlimited data plan user just because they are charged overage fees. AT&T should hold up their end of the bargain or release me for their breach of contract because they are enforcing there rules to “protect their network” not by data usage but by how much money we pay them and what plan we have. Their rules should be enforced for all users’ tiered data and unlimited data users if it is truly the customer that is the problem not AT&T for not maintaining their network. Further when I inquired about just paying the ETF and leaving I requested that my iPhone 4s that I would be paying $350 ETF for and which is compatible with both Sprint and Verizon In conjunction with AT&T to be unlocked AT&T blatantly refused stating it is not policy. When I called apple they informed me the carrier is able to unlock it and Verizon and sprint both do but AT&T refuse to let me use the phone I am paying the full price for after I pay the ETF on any other network but their own. Since there is no longer and exclusivity agreement between apple and AT&T I feel it is just another attempt at AT&T from abusing their customers and giving them an other obstacle to jump over if they try to go to the competition. Attached below is an excerpt from AT&T wireless contract section 6.2 Accordingly, AT&T reserves the right to (i) deny, disconnect, modify and/or terminate Service, without notice, to anyone it believes is using the Service in any manner prohibited or whose usage adversely impacts its wireless network or service levels or hinders access to its wireless network, including without limitation, after a significant period of inactivity or after sessions of excessive usage and (ii) otherwise protect its wireless network from harm, compromised capacity or degradation in performance, which may impact legitimate data flows. You may not send solicitations to AT&T's wireless subscribers without their consent. You may not use the Services other than as intended by AT&T and applicable law. Plans are for individual, non-commercial use only and are not for resale. AT&T may, but is not required to, monitor your compliance, or the compliance of other subscribers, with AT&T's terms, conditions, or policies.

DimentoGraven · ‎03-25-2008

Interesting, is that section the same for tiered plan users?

Here's all the fun bits:

Accordingly, AT&T reserves the right to (i) deny, disconnect, modify and/or terminate Service, without notice,

"to anyone it believes is using the Service in any manner prohibited"

"or whose usage adversely impacts its wireless network or service levels"

"or hinders access to its wireless network, including without limitation, after a significant period of inactivity or after sessions of excessive usage"

"and (ii) otherwise protect its wireless network from harm,"

"compromised capacity"

"or degradation in performance,"

which may impact legitimate data flows.

So, nothing in this I see would NOT apply to a user on a tiered plan using the EXACT SAME amount of data as an 'unlimited' user.

I guess the part that gives AT&T the 'right' to be data "bigots" is this part:

"AT&T may, but is not required to, monitor your compliance, or the compliance of other subscribers, with AT&T's terms, conditions, or policies."

Yes, it's ugly. We have situations where AT&T is treating the 25 dollars from the tier 2 customers as more valuable than the 30 dollars from the 'unlimited' customer, because the tier 2 customer is allowed complete access to their 2gb allotment at 'best capable' data rates, where as the "unlimited" user paid more, but gets less service...

In no way shape or form is this fair, or ethical.

It "might" be technically legal, but just barely.

knucks507 · ‎04-01-2008

Yes it's the same section for all wireless data plans