Re: Angry with AT&T meddling and blocking upgrades on Android? Let them Know Here!

redpoint73 · ‎10-01-2007

Agreed that AT&T bloatware is useless and troublesome, with little quality control and testing. Its really not quality software by any stretch of the imagination, and only exists to push unknowing consumers into using additional paid services. This has been the case since before Android ever existed, way back on Windows Mobile days.

Nexus line is a decent option. But if you're willing to tinker with your phone, rooting is another option. Once rooted, you can remove the bloatware easily, or even install custom firmware stripped of bloat and with awesome optimizations and added features. Keep in mind that such mods may void your warranty or cause damage to the device if done improperly. So its not for everyone, and research thoughly before trying any such mods.

Rooting is the best way to realize the full potentional of any Android device devices, without having to limit yourself to the small Nexus line. And modding the phone is actually quite fun, as long as you have the time to learn the basics.

CyberBrew · ‎01-04-2013

@redpoint73 Yes, I'm aware of rooting along with the pros and cons. I have rooted before and used custom mods. However, with this Note II I am so far very impressed with TouchWiz. I think maybe the development team is keeping in touch with the trends over on XDA. I appreciate the thoughful concern.

HOWEVER, I will post this as an update and I find it quite amuzing thus far. As a mere coincidence, I checked for updates and pulled down the JB 4.1.2 update today. I happen to check the apps in App Manager and noticed that AT&T Smart Wi-Fi and AT&T Locker are no longer on my device. I don't think it is because I disabled them, maybe so. However I would think that even if I disabled them I could still get to them to enable them.

Maybe AT&T is listening and just not telling us. If so, it would be wise to be more in touch with their customer base. A little reaching out can go a LONG LONG way in my humble opinion. Just saying....

harryspar · ‎11-06-2011

Bloatware

Takes up room on your phone,

Slows down your phone,

Wastes your battery,

Wastes your data.

I alway root my phone and get rid of the bloatware, first thing.

If the apps were any good they wouldn't have to lock them into the phone.

Imagine if ATT Navigator were a free download in the app store. How many people do you think would download it?

NatLWalker · ‎08-15-2010

Well for one you don't want to be doing certain things on public WiFi hotspots (banking and anything you want to keep secure).

Secondly, some people still have Cable and DSL internet connections that are much slower than their phone's LTE connection in their markets, ESPECIALLY for upload speed.

In the case of DSL, if you're instant-uploading all your pictures when your phone is on WiFi/Charging it can cripple the download speeds for everyone else on yoru network (i.e. have fun trying to stream a 720/1080p video on YouTube, and that movie you were just streaming through your Netflix XB360 app, it will buffer perpetually now gratz!).

Unless you use a metric ton of data streaming stuff from Google Play (in which case you're better off just getting a cheap 16GB SD Card or just buying a bigger storage SKU iPhone), 3GB isn't bad and should handle pretty much everything you need to do, with few exceptions.

Another huge issue with Android devices is Google Talk Voice and Video chat being blocked on AT&T's mobile network. They've never allowed this to go through without hacking your phone, but iPhones are now blessed with the ability to do this over HSPA/LTE now... Hilarious...

With the way AT&T cripples their phones, I'm starting to wonder why it's even worth it to have a smartphone, instead of a cheap feature phone on some cheap network like Boost or Sprint for 1/3rd the price and just getting text notifications for everything... I think I'll be going to verizon in a month or so to get a device that is less crippled though. The bloatware isn't even a big issue since the only thing I can't disabled or Uninstall on my Phone is AT&T Ready to Go and that's fine.

It's the way they block and lock down features that is a huge issue, and the only workaround is to run more apps/services on your device which impacts it in other ways that aren't good (i.e. eating at your battery).

sonicthoughts · ‎01-25-2005

Yes, I just discovered that AT&T blocks google talk. Voice and Video chat. Really remarkable that they can get away with this and allow facetime on iPhone. I think the only way to tackle this is to keep telling AT&T how we feel.

kgbkny · ‎10-23-2012

sonicthoughts wrote:
I think the only way to tackle this is to keep telling AT&T how we feel.

Or to root our phones and take advantage of their full capabilities. That's the beautiful thing about Android!

redpoint73 · ‎10-01-2007

kgbkny wrote:

sonicthoughts wrote:
I think the only way to tackle this is to keep telling AT&T how we feel.

Or to root our phones and take advantage of their full capabilities. That's the beautiful thing about Android!

Amen, brother.

For those that are rooted and bootloader unlocked, official (Sense) Jellybean was available to be flashed before Christmas. Unofficial Jellybean (CM10) has been available since, I don't know . . . last June or July?

sonicthoughts · ‎01-25-2005

"Or to root our phones and take advantage of their full capabilities"

Look, I don't disagree, however this activity has been labels "outlaw". In fact, you are not even allowed to have a rooted phone on AT&T's network (although they tolerate it or would lose a lot of money!) To say that there are ways around all this nonesense is avoiding the root cause: "this is my phone and I want to do with it as I please!" "Stop trying to control me."

What happens if they spend hours, and $$$ to plug vunerabilities that let us root. what if rooting leads to a massive security breach. Let's take a step back and ask ourselves why we have to go through this with OUR OWN PHONES!

The carriers have set these rediculous rules, and we are buying into it. My point is to let the carriers know that this will no longer be tolerated.

Anyway thanks for the healthy discussion and please continue with respectful comments!!!

21stNow · ‎07-07-2010

My thoughts are that customers back carriers into corners with various complaints along the way. There are threads complaining that we don't have XYZ update for ABC device. Then, when the update comes, there are threads saying that the update has broken the phone and the customers want AT&T to fix it. The carrier will never win in this situation.

We, as customers, have to let the carriers be the cellular service providers that they should be and let OEMs be the supporters of devices that they should be. We should put pressure on Samsung, HTC, and others to have walk-in service centers in many places in the US so that when we have problems with the phones, we go to them.

We should put pressure on OEMs to release devices that don't have additional software on top of Android (manufacturer skins). This slows down the Android update process in ways that Windows Phone users don't have to deal with.

We need different sales channels for devices. I would like to see something like Carphone Warehouse here in the US. Best Buy Mobile comes close, but it's not what I really want to see. If there were no carrier branding and distribution of the devices, it would reduce customer perception that carriers were responsible for the devices.

We, as customers, have to stop using AT&T Navigator and all those other apps that the carriers deem necessary to put on our phones (ain't gonna happen). As long as the carriers can make money adding apps, branding devices and distributing devices, the phones will never truly be our own. Updates will be slower in the US than they are in Europe (for example) because we have a bunch of things muddying our phone acquisition and support process that they don't have.

sonicthoughts · ‎01-25-2005

Some great points! I don't understand though why we should give carriers a pass for medeling and go after the OEM "We should put pressure on OEMs to release devices that don't have additional software on top of Android" - IMHO AT&T is far worse by blocking features Google Talk, Wallet, locking the device and adding apps which cannot be removed. Sure, Samsung adds Touchwiz but you can use a different loader. I also wish they were faster at delivering updates, but I want my relationship with the OEM - I just want AT&T to be my carrier. Why is this different than getting a landline, getting a voice phone, or a computer/ISP. Why does AT&T feel entitled to control MY PHONE?

As far as a boycott of AT&T apps, well good luck... frankly, I have no problem with more value added services but let me remove it from my phone and don't block competitors.

htcphoneman · ‎01-18-2013

I think the major issue here is AT&T is forced to support the hardware, software, and network. Can you call Google for help with Android? No. Can you call HTC for help with Android? No. HTC tells you to contact AT&T first. Can you call HTC for connectivity issues? No. HTC tells you to contact AT&T first. As for blocking stuff, they have a reason. I notice my connectivity gets slower and slower each month, as more and more get LTE phones. Since the iPhone is #1, they were forced to open up face time. If Samsung S3 was #1, they would open Google stuff also.

kgbkny · ‎10-23-2012

sonicthoughts wrote:
"Or to root our phones and take advantage of their full capabilities"

Look, I don't disagree, however this activity has been labels "outlaw". In fact, you are not even allowed to have a rooted phone on AT&T's network (although they tolerate it or would lose a lot of money!) To say that there are ways around all this nonesense is avoiding the root cause: "this is my phone and I want to do with it as I please!" "Stop trying to control me."

What happens if they spend hours, and $$$ to plug vunerabilities that let us root. what if rooting leads to a massive security breach. Let's take a step back and ask ourselves why we have to go through this with OUR OWN PHONES!

The carriers have set these rediculous rules, and we are buying into it. My point is to let the carriers know that this will no longer be tolerated.

Anyway thanks for the healthy discussion and please continue with respectful comments!!!

I agree with everything you've stated. After all, we've paid for the phone; as such, it's our property, not AT&T's, and we should be able to do with it as we wish. Unfortunately, the practice of blocking/disabling certain features goes back to the days before smartphones became ubiquitous. If you purchase a carrier variant of any given phone, be prepared to give up some functionality and relinquish control of the device. For instance, the unlocked version of the Galaxy S3 is equipped with an AM/FM radio, which the U.S. carriers (not just AT&T) chose to disable. Same goes for Google Wallet. Believe me, I would rather avoid having to root my device (I haven't rooted it...yet) to regain control of it, but the carriers are backing subscribers into a corner by limiting what we can do with a device of which we are rightful owners.

With regards to AT&T not allowing rooted phones on their network, that would be akin to not allowing unlocked phones on their network. The one good thing about T-Mobile is that they fully support rooting. If only their network was better!

As I've mentioned many times before, if Google releases a Nexus device that supports LTE, I will never purchase another carrier phone. NEVER.

NatLWalker · ‎08-15-2010

That's not the same. The GS3 US variants may not even have an FM Radio Antenna in them. The GS and GS2 US Variants also came without an FM Radio in the US, because the hardware for it simply weren't in those phones. On the flip side, both the HTC Vivid and the Xperia ion shipped on AT&T, branded, with their FM Radios intact (While the SR did not). So AT&T isn't just disabling FM Radios in software. NFC *was* disabled in software, but later enabled in a FW update (they did this for all their phones that shipped with GB and got upgraded to ICS).

As for Google Wallet, that's not really comparable and I don't think any reasonable person expected that to go live on AT&T - nevermind it was exclusive for Sprint phones for a while so Google didn't help themselves there, anyways... Google Wallet is an app, not an in-built function of the OS like the VoIP/Video Calling in Google Talk.

Blocking VoIP/Video chat is a completely different situation and I'm actually baffled why the Android community says "just root your phone" yet the iOS community didn't basically tell people to hack their phones to use FT over 3G/LTE, which you could do before Apple even rolled the feature out BTW...

I had to bring a phone back to get replaced after the data connection stopped working (it would charge but you could not connect it to a PC and get a data connection to flash anything, FW upgrade, etc.). What if my phone was super hacked with a custom ROM and I walked into the AT&T DSC with that phone? They'd laugh at me and tell me there's nothing they could do for me. The risks aren't worth it, especially when you simply want to enable one feature. Stuff happens, and I don't have time to commit insurance fraud and tell them I lose a phone just because I don't want them to invalidate my warranty and notate my account that my phone was super hacked when I walked in there.

Even then, it wouldn't matter because AT&T is blocking the ports at the connection level on thier network. The only way to get around it is to have a Google Profile and use Google+, which posts all your hangouts to your Stream or use an alternative app like Skype, which doens't auto-start on boot, crashes more than occasionally in my experience (right now it won't even let me sign in), and drains your battery. I certainly don't want a Google+ Account/Public Google Profile.

Maybe Facebook will lauch VoIP/Video Calling soon and this will not matter so much, but for now it's a huge issue and yes I'm already looking at phones on other carriers to remedy it.

I don't have too much time to waste complaining on a forum. If people think they're reading this thread, which isn't even all that active and has already been polluted by people making excuses for the carrier, then good on them. They'll get their reality check soon.

Me, I'll just get a phone from a carrier that doesn't render core functions of the phone inoperable when I'm not tethering myself to a WiFi hotspot.

I don't know why people are crying about bloatware. Bloatware, other than AT&T Ready to Go, can be easily disabled and no it does not take 2GB on your phone. AT&T's bloatware takes maybe 25-30MB at the most in your phone's FW, which is forgettable on any phone with 2+ GB of App Storage. Google's Chrome Browser is bigger than that, easily.

sonicthoughts · ‎01-25-2005

Thanks for the input. I only ahve a minute, but there are a few things I'd like to respond to:

1. NFC / Google Wallet have been specifically disabled for business reasons. AT&T has a competing payment technology. It was not exclusive for Sprint, Google wants it everywhere (and were willing to pay) but AT&T doesn't want any competititon.

2. Android is a much more sophisticated community than iPhone and more capable of rooting. Many people DID suggest jailbreak to get around limitations. Consumer voice pushed AT&T to eventually unblock, but they still disable apps on android.

3. Your point about warrantee - If your computer stopped working, would you take it to verizon? Sure if they sold it to you. The only reason the carriers have deep integration w/ the hardware, software and network is for business reasons. There is absolutely no reason they couldn't manage the phone at the TCP/IP layer and let you do what you want just like an ISP and PC. These are business decisions, not technical, although they use the technology all the time as an excuse.

4. "I don't have too much time to waste complaining on a forum" - who does. I'm hoping this will have some (albiet small) impact on AT&T.

5. "I don't know why people are crying about bloatware. " I have several apps from AT&T and they can't be removed. AT&T has done many OS level changes that I don't want. It's my phone and I want to do with it as I please.

Thanks again for the dialog.

redpoint73 · ‎10-01-2007

NatLWalker wrote:

I'm actually baffled why the Android community says "just root your phone" yet the iOS community didn't basically tell people to hack their phones to use FT over 3G/LTE, which you could do before Apple even rolled the feature out BTW...

The 2 communities are completely different animals. Android tends to appeal to folks who like control and customization. iOS, less so in general. In fact, I would even argue the iOS ecosystem drives people to not jailbreak their phone; people that would otherwise be the type to tinker with their smartphone. I have quite a few friends who own iPhones and are in the tech industry (software developers, IT professionals, and otherwise very technical savvy individuals). The very definition of tinkeres, but they are all scared of jailbreaking their phones. Partially due to fear of voiding their warranty, but also due to being wary of the cat-and-mouse game where every new iOS update breaks the previous jailbreak method.

redpoint73 · ‎10-01-2007

NatLWalker wrote:

I had to bring a phone back to get replaced after the data connection stopped working (it would charge but you could not connect it to a PC and get a data connection to flash anything, FW upgrade, etc.). What if my phone was super hacked with a custom ROM and I walked into the AT&T DSC with that phone? They'd laugh at me and tell me there's nothing they could do for me. The risks aren't worth it, especially when you simply want to enable one feature. Stuff happens, and I don't have time to commit insurance fraud and tell them I lose a phone just because I don't want them to invalidate my warranty and notate my account that my phone was super hacked when I walked in there.

You are letting AT&T scare you into not using your phone the way YOU want to. Its quite simple to change from a custom ROM back to the stock ROM, and unroot it, for the purpose of a warranty repair/replacement.

Rooting is hardly a "super hack". Rooting is just a change in permission, that is fundamentally allowed in Linux (and Android is Linux).

kgbkny · ‎10-23-2012

Google Wallet actually was never exclusive to Sprint, as it was readily available on the Nexus phones. The reason why it was blocked by AT&T, Verizon and T-Mobile is because all three carriers are involved in the development of the ISIS payment system, a direct competitor to Google Wallet. Sprint just happens to be the only carrier that officially supported it.

With regards to bringing a rooted/ROMmed phone to a service center, that's just asking for it. Restoring a phone to stock is just as easy as rooting/ROMming it.

kgbkny · ‎10-23-2012

sonicthoughts wrote:

5. "I don't know why people are crying about bloatware. " I have several apps from AT&T and they can't be removed. AT&T has done many OS level changes that I don't want. It's my phone and I want to do with it as I please.

If only I could give multiple kudos to this statement! We bought the phone. It's ours, not AT&T's. If we don't want glorified advertising on our phones, we should be able to remove it without having to resort to rooting.

21stNow · ‎07-07-2010

sonicthoughts wrote: 1. NFC / Google Wallet have been specifically disabled for business reasons. AT&T has a competing payment technology. It was not exclusive for Sprint, Google wants it everywhere (and were willing to pay) but AT&T doesn't want any competititon.

How sure are you of this? I read a White paper on NFC technology and it seemed like the NFC technology from Google Wallet can't coexist with the NFC technology from ISIS. This has also been found with T-Mobile customers who had access to Google Wallet and were in the ISIS test markets. They found that if they tried to use ISIS, Google Wallet wouldn't work. If they removed the ISIS SIM card from their phones, Google Wallet would function again.

Google Wallet uses the secure element to allow the NFC radio in the phone to communicate with the NFC touchpads in the merchant locations. From my understanding, Google has not allowed every phone to have full access to this secure element (out of the box). There are modifications that allow users to get access to the secure element.

If the carriers were blocking Google Wallet, the modifications wouldn't work. Moreover, I wouldn't be able to use an unmodified Nexus device to use Google Wallet on with AT&T and T-Mobile. If the carriers were doing anything in this situation they may not have the secure element enabled on the devices that they sell, but I doubt that they are actively blocking access to the secure element.

sonicthoughts · ‎01-25-2005

There are several software modifications available to circumvent the AT&T block and use Google Wallet on many phones GSIII for example so it is defintely not a hardware issue. It is a threat to ISIS which is AT&T's competiitive solution. AT&T does permit Nexus to use it.

21stNow · ‎07-07-2010

My understanding of the modifications is that they simply allow the user to have access to the secure element in the phone, which is needed for Google Wallet to work. If the user gets access to the secure element, the carrier isn't doing anything on their end to block access to Google Wallet.

sonicthoughts · ‎01-25-2005

@21stnow Google wants it on every phone possible so it will be ubiquitous. The carrier blocks it. There are workarounds, like rooting which is the whole point of this thread - why do we need to be outlaws just to use our phone the way we want! I don't think you are getting the point. Do a google search and you will see plenty of discussion about carriers blocking Wallet.

21stNow · ‎07-07-2010

I get the point; I just don't agree with your assessment that the carriers are the ones that are blocking Google Wallet.

I've participated in some of the discussions about Google Wallet, as I am an active user of GW and have been since it went live around a year ago. I'm not the only one that thinks that it's not the carriers that are blocking Google Wallet. The common view is that the carriers are blocking it, but I've not seen anything but conspiracy theories to back this up.

Edited to add: Here is a link to the White paper that I referred to earlier. I give more weight to information from sources like this more than what I read on various forums and message boards.

http://www.droplabs.co/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Emerging-Mobile-Payments-landscape.pdf

NatLWalker · ‎08-15-2010

Rooting is using a security hole to gain super user access to the OS. It's akin to hacking a Windows PC's Admin Account. That's what rooting is. It's not "a simple change in permission" and it's not safe. Some of us use our phones for work, too. I don't have time to JB/Root my phones and I don't like the risk it adds to using the device.

AT&T doesn't have to scare anyone. If you walk up there with a busted phone that turns on and is running a Custom FW they will not help you - period. That's just the way it is, and that's why people on forums like AC and XDA commit rampant security fraud by just calling Asurion and telling them their phone was lost or stolen to pay the deductible and get a replacement phone in those cases - they wouldn't get anywhere at teh AT&T DSC with that crap on their phones.

Nevermind Custom ROMs like CM are missing a metric ton of features that are in Skins like TouchWiz and Sense, and for many of those there are no decent alternatives in the market (nevermind those apps are heavy and can be bothersome especially if they run in the background). There's a marked difference in battery life when you have to run Skype on your phone, bascially all day, in an LTE market - for example.

Secondly, the communities are the same. Most Android users don't even know what rooting is. You're looking at enthusiast forums and acting like it represents the entire community. The reason why Android users don't care is cause they just load up another app. Google doesn't have a desktop OS like MS and Apple so users tend to ignore services like Talk (not many people I know use it, but a few do). They'll just load up something like Yahoo! or Skype and use that instead. I don't have time to create an account for everyone I know that uses a dispirate services, when they all have Google Accounts and can use this. You didn't even begin to address the blatant oddness of AT&T blocking one service but not the other, especially with iPhones representing most of their smartphone sales it's not like the Androids would have crippled them (This has existed long before FT over Cellular).

Secure Element can be anything in the phone set up as a secure element. It can be a chip in the phone or it can be on the SIM card. ISIS uses the SIM card. Google Wallet doesn't (yet). Yes, there is a conflict when both are used concurrently. That is why Verizon can block Google Wallet. It's their SIM card and they don't have to give Google Access to the SE on their SIM. Furthermore, if they want they can just have the OEM not put the other chip in (surprise?) the same way they can have them remove a camera flash or SD Card Slot. In any case, NFC payments simply aren't mainstream enough for this to even be an issue. You still basically HAVE to have your wallet with you everywhere. I don't know anyone who went Christmas shopping with a Nexus phone.........

kgbkny · ‎10-23-2012

NatLWalker wrote:
Rooting is using a security hole to gain super user access to the OS. It's akin to hacking a Windows PC's Admin Account. That's what rooting is. It's not "a simple change in permission" and it's not safe. Some of us use our phones for work, too. I don't have time to JB/Root my phones and I don't like the risk it adds to using the device.

It's not a security hole, it's a feature of Android. If this was a hole, Google would have patched it up a long time ago.

AT&T doesn't have to scare anyone. If you walk up there with a busted phone that turns on and is running a Custom FW they will not help you - period. That's just the way it is, and that's why people on forums like AC and XDA commit rampant security fraud by just calling Asurion and telling them their phone was lost or stolen to pay the deductible and get a replacement phone in those cases - they wouldn't get anywhere at teh AT&T DSC with that crap on their phones.

As I've mentioned earlier, unrooting and flashing a stock image is just as easy as rooting and flashing a custom ROM. I don't mean to offend you at all, but it appears that your knowledge of rooting is not very extensive. There is no need to commit insurance (not security) fraud, as a very simple software fix exists.

Nevermind Custom ROMs like CM are missing a metric ton of features that are in Skins like TouchWiz and Sense, and for many of those there are no decent alternatives in the market (nevermind those apps are heavy and can be bothersome especially if they run in the background). There's a marked difference in battery life when you have to run Skype on your phone, bascially all day, in an LTE market - for example.

Agreed, although this is highly subjective. Many users, myself included, prefer stock Android to OEM skins. Speaking of heavy, Sense is quite the resource hog. However, for those who prefer skins, there are plenty of skin-based ROMs available, with all the bloatware stripped out. In the interest of full disclosure, my GS3 is neither rooted nor ROMmed, as my preference for stock Android is taken care of by my Nexus 10. Far superior user experience, if you ask me.

sonicthoughts · ‎01-25-2005

IMHO you guys are both right! Look the reason we are doing ANY of this is because of the carrier business practices. You don't have to root your windows PC! Why should this be different? The reason we have to go through all this, risk warranty, etc. is that AT&T and other carriers have made us believe that this is their device because of their contract business model and basically because they CAN.

kgbkny · ‎10-23-2012

On a somewhat different note, the Nexus 4 has just reappeared on the Google Play Store, with a 1-2 week shipping estimate. I pulled the trigger and ordered the 16GB version. I'll play around with it for a few days, just to see how much the lack of LTE affects my daily usage. I admit that I've been spoiled by LTE, so chances are that the Nexus 4 will be heading for eBay. If I can get decent enough HSPA+ speeds, I may just part with the GS3.

If anyone is interested in the Nexus 4, I'd suggest heading to the Play Store right now and ordering one. These things have been selling out within a few minutes of being put on sale, and there's no way of telling if this time will be any different.

sonicthoughts · ‎01-25-2005

I'm glad you raised that here. I'm sure many people will sacrifice LTE for a device they completely own.

bmgoodman · ‎07-29-2010

Greetings, Don Quixote! How goes the tilting at windmills?

To the OP, I support what you say, but the part you fail to realize is what I refer to as "the beauty of the oligopoly". You see, AT&T customers who get fed up go off to Verizon, T Mobile, or Sprint for the most part. Same thing with the fed up Verizon customers, and T Mobile Customers, and Sprint. There's just not that much risk to these companies for mistreating us. And until 1 phone will work out-of-the-box on 4 or 5 U.S. carriers, nothing will change. They've even taken away the possibility of a class action lawsuit, which was the last way to potentially force them to change. It's too late. We sold out for a few shiny trinkets.

sonicthoughts · ‎01-25-2005

@bmgoodman - you nailed it! That is the agenda of my post. AT&T will continue to churn (which hurts margins/stock price etc.) BUT they have an opportunity to LEAD the industry by changing their practices and letting people really own devices. It's game theory. One of the carriers will do this, then they will all have to. Who will be first?